North Africa Recce 1942 ish

[Essexmark]

Hello all
First Post so please be gentle. I will have a number of questions in due course so I hope that's ok.
I've come back to gaming after a 30 year hiatus and gone a bit mad buying loads of stuff mainly in 10mm, but some 20mm as well. I've settled down recently and decided to go back to my first love 6mm. I really like 1:1 stuff even in this size. So now putting a North Africa 8th Army and DAK force together for circa 1941/1942 with my first thought around recce
So questions:
1) British Sabre squadron. How many troops please and how many vehicles per troop. Any idea of likely mix of vehicles (so humbers, daimlers etc)
2) Likewise on the DAK side. How many platoons in a company and what mix of vehicles per platoon (so mix of 221 and 222 as an example)
I hope this is OK to ask
Thanks
Mark

[fred]

Hi welcome on board! Your questions are good ones.

I’d have recommended 10mm, but 6mm is a pretty good choice for desert battles!

I’m not sure on the specifics of your questions, I tend to play at 1 stand = 1 platoon so don’t worry too much about specific armoured cars!

There was a lot of change in vehicles in use in the desert, partly as replacement vehicles tended to come in large batches  due to the remoteness and therefore reliance on shipping in of new stuff. Which gives you quite a lot of leeway on what you field. And this is before you get to the ad hoc nature of many forces in the desert with Battlegroups and Kampgruppe being used by both sides. But it is good to have a starting point based on orders of battle etc.

[carlos marighela]

British armoured car regiments circa 1942 were made up of RHQ and three squadrons, each of five troops plus an SHQ troop. 3 X Cars at SHQ and each of the five troops consisted of three(3) cars. So your squadron would have, at least on paper, 18 armoured vehicles.

Types varied across the years and between regiments but by 1942 the 11th Hussars would be mostly Humber equipped, using the MkII and MkIII versions (the MkIII being essentially a MkII with a somewhat shorter wheelbase). 12th Lancers had these too.

Other armoured car regiments tended to use the Marmon Herrington cars and by mid 1942 those would mostly be the MkIII version although these started to be replaced by Daimler armoured cars around the middle of 1942 and for a while there would be squadrons with a mix of types, Daimlers and MHs.

[Essexmark]

Thank you both for your responses. The one on the British structure is very helpful. I'm struggling to find what the German recce units would look like if I'm honest. I think given the ad-hoc nature of the war out there a mix of vehicles makes sense. What I need to think about is although the idea of a squadron appeals on a 6x4 table, and even in 6mm, I think fielding a whole squadron maybe extreme. It may mean a number of vehicles bought and painted never see gaming time. I may think about a couple of troops of British and then if I can see what the make up is of a couple of platoons of German recce units. Thanks again

[Panzer21]

http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/42_organ/ad_recon.html

https://www.geocities.ws/desertfox1891/articles/GermanRecce/GeReccBtl.html

German armoured cars were predominantly Sdkfz 222; IIRC 5L/21 Pz had some 221 in the early days, but 222 were the most numerous, supported by 232 8-wheelers.

Very few troop  half-tracks in NA - mostly used for HQ.

British A/cars in 1941 mostly Marmon Herrington Mk2, South Africans had some Mk3. 11 Hussars got first Humbers Mk2.

Neil

[Essexmark]

Thanks Neil. That's really helpful

[jon_1066]

Thank you both for your responses. The one on the British structure is very helpful. I'm struggling to find what the German recce units would look like if I'm honest. I think given the ad-hoc nature of the war out there a mix of vehicles makes sense. What I need to think about is although the idea of a squadron appeals on a 6x4 table, and even in 6mm, I think fielding a whole squadron maybe extreme. It may mean a number of vehicles bought and painted never see gaming time. I may think about a couple of troops of British and then if I can see what the make up is of a couple of platoons of German recce units. Thanks again

Have you decided on what rules you want to use?  Also with 6 mm you can use the figures for multiple different games.

[sultanbev]

If you require detailed organisations, there are plenty in the MicroMark collection on the Wargames Vault. Most of the divisional lists feature their recce battalion.
https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/3426/MicroMark-Army-Lists

As an example, here is the German 33rd Recce Battalion July 20-24th 1942, List G481:
Divisional 33rd Recce Battalion
Bttn HQ: 2 rifle squads, 2 trucks, 1 car, 1 radio van
Signals Platoon: 1x Kfz 2 pack radio car, 4 radio trucks, 2 radio vans

1st Armoured Car Company: CHQ: 1(8 man) rifle squad, 1 car, 2 M/C Combos
1 platoon: 2x Sdkfz 231, 1x Sdkfz 232 8 rad
1 platoon: 2x Sdkfz 222, 1x Sdkfz 221 or Sdkfz 223

2nd Light Recce Company:
CHQ: 1x Sdkfz 250/3, 1 M/C Combo, 1(6 man) rifle squad
1 platoon: 1x Sdkfz 250/10, 3x Sdkfz 250/1, 4(4 man) rifle squads
1 platoon: 4x Sdkfz 250/1, 4(4 man) rifle squads

3rd Support Company: CHQ: 1(5 man) rifle squad, 1 truck
1 Pioneer Platoon: 1(4 man) rifle/engineer PHQ squad, 1x Kubel,
                            2(5 man) rifle/engineer squads, 2 GPMG, 1 truck
1 A/T Platoon: 1x 5cm PAK38, 1x Sdkfz 10 or truck, 1 ammo truck
1 Gun Platoon: 3x Sdkfz 250/25mmL73 French anti-tank gun

4th Beute Battery: 2x 25pdr field guns, 3 trucks, 4 cars, 1 OP Team
--------------
For the British, it does depend on the regiment and the time of year, as has been stated. For example some units in mid 1942 starting receiving a few Daimler II armoured cars, so some Troops were mixed with 1x Daimler II and 2x Humber III.

Commonwealth units are different again, The Aussies and New Zealand also using tanks for example.

For really detailed German organisations, it would be worth downloading the files on the Niehorster site, vols 3/I and 4/I have some North African units in.
http://www.niehorster.org/011_germany/books_gwwii/index_vols.htm

Mark

[carlos marighela]

Bear in mind that neither the Australians or Kiwis had Corps level recce units, at least not in theatre, only divisional cavalry units. The armoured car regiments were nominally Corps assets although as frequently as not they were attached to divisions.

Div cavalry assets were a mix of light tanks and universal carriers, although by 2nd Alamein, the 9th Division's cavalry regiment was fielding numbers of Crusader tanks instead of proper light tanks. The Kiwi 2nd Division would go on to become a bizzare mixed division in Italy with an armoured brigade of its own.

In 6mm a dozen or two vehicles in a force is quite manageable and not a huge burden on the purse.

[Essexmark]

Thank you everyone for your help.
To answer a couple of questions. Rules, currently Battlegroup for my 20mm large skirmish and BKC4 for my 10mm. I'm probably going to set up for 1 model : 1 tank BKC
1:1 that's what I mean. 1 model is one tank and a base of 5 infantry being a section, 2 bases to a platoon and dice for casualties. I'm not really a 1 model is a platoon or company player.  Thanks again. I'll have many more questions and it looks like this forum will be full of help
Mark