Freezywater WoTR booklets

[Elk101]

I'm looking at finally getting round to sortin gout my Front Rank Wotr collection. I've painted up a few minor lords' retinue troops previously but would now like to expand my forces.

I've unfortunately lost most of my earlier research going back 4 or 5 years thanks to a failed PC so I was looking to pick up the highly recommended 'Standards, Badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses' from Freezywater (via Lance & Longbow or Vexillia). What I was wondering is whether the 3 volume 'Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses' is worth the £27 or £25 asking price? What I would be looking to gain from it is a good understanding (such as the period allows) of minor lords and livery colours, badges, etc. as well as who fought where. Would anyone recommend it, or should I use the cash to buy more figures?

Thank you in advance!

[Big Martin]

I've got the single "Standards, Badges & Livery Colours" volume from them (£9) - it's got most of what I want - quite a few of the known standards and liveries, especially for the major "players". I've managed 2 sizeable WOTR armies from this. I've also got the 2 battle guides which cover who fought where in some detail.

I've not looked at the 3 volume set to see if it has got more that I need to be worth the £25.

[Elk101]

I've not looked at the 3 volume set to see if it has got more that I need to be worth the £25.
[/quote]

That's what I was thinking; would I just get by using the livery guide. £25 is a reasonable amount of figures! I am mainly interested the northern lords so will probabky pick up the Freezywater booklet on that topic too. Thanks.

[Arlequín]

I rate them personally and used to have them all. Like any research though, they are prone to error in places and some arms are considerably less complex in the guides than irl, where folk liked to advertise all of their family connections (think of the Earl of Warwick's coat of arms for this in the extreme!). The booklets also feature hard to find snippets like the archer assessments for various counties under some entries too, as well as who retained who in some places.

Nothing about livery colours or badges in them though, just coats of arms. It's my understanding though, that unless you were a knight banneret or above (i.e. hereditary peer), you wouldn't have a livery or be entitled to carry a standard... or that seems to be the case in practice, judging by what has survived. As a knight bachelor (i.e. life peer) or below, you would be serving someone else as a retainer and wearing their livery. That's just my thoughts though.

Unless you're really into the period, I'd say spend the money on figures. You have all of the livery colours you're likely to get in that book and individual coats of arms abound on the net if you have a name. If you have a name, then the appropriate banner sheets available can be accessed from Freezywater anyway. 

[Elk101]

I must admit I had hoped for an Arlequin response!

That's exactly what I wanted to know. I just wasn't sure what the content would be, other than the obvious banners element! As regards rights to livery, that is also my general understanding (though not as detailed as yours!). I have a modest collection of 7 or 8 WotR books to draw upon but they have little in the way of information for painting (though some of them are an excellent read). I was hoping to focus on some of the less well known personalities who may have brought relatively small retinues with them and the biographic element of the 3 volume set appealed.

I had previously painted up part of a small retinue for Sir William Fielding of Lutterworth and was focusing on Tewkesbury as a snapshot for my factions.

[Elk101]

I forgot to add, thank you for your response!

I'll definitely pick up 'Livery colours' and may get the 3 volume set at some point in the future as I do really like the period. Now what can I spend that £25 I've saved on? It's a shame Perry's plastics seem to be considered too small to field with Front Rank as I'd love to pick up some of those.

[Arlequín]

I must admit I had hoped for an Arlequin response!

 What exactly is an 'Arlequin response' when it's at home?
 


Your welcome! I'm always happy to give an opinion, even if one isn't wanted. 

I do think they're worth getting, they're by wargamers for wargamers, especially anally-retentive/detail-obsessed guys like myself. They always list their sources somewhere too, so you can go and check their interpretation against them, which is never a bad thing imo.

It's a real shame that Front-Rank and Perry don't match, as there are some great figures in that range. Until the plastics arrived, I always swore that if I got into WotR again it would be Front Rank over Foundry for me.

[Elk101]

Having trawled through a bucket load of old posts to see if the info was there before I posted it became evident that there were certain knowledgeable LAFers on this subject. If I had to guess I'd say some had even studied the topic at an academic level? Perhaps for a history degree? There would be some great dissertation topics! An 'Arlequin response' was, therefore, one that I reckoned would be highly worthwhile! 

Definitely a shame about the Perry figs. I have pretty much all the Front Rank foot figures so would love to add something different.

[Arlequín]

  Okay, it's a fair cop guvnor... it's a short step between 'knowledgeable and 'thinks he knows it all' though... to paraphrase someone else, "all I've learnt is how much I don't know".

 

[Elk101]

I thought I recognised the signs!

Okay, it's a fair cop guvnor... it's a short step between 'knowledgeable and 'thinks he knows it all' though... to paraphrase someone else, "all I've learnt is how much I don't know".

 

'Tis a pleasure to listen to (read!) you sir!

[Elk101]

I've ordered the  'Standards, Badges. etc' booklet. I was thinking that I'd be able to have a reasonable stab at livery colours from the standards using the bordures as a rough guide but as you say (Arlequin) the 3 volume set deals with heraldic banners which need not have any relationship to the livery colours as far as I recall. My 15th c. knowledge is somewhat rusty!

[Arlequín]

As a loose rule of thumb and with the proviso that 'that is what they were at the time they were created KG', Garter Stall Plates from St. Georges Chapel, Windsor (which you can find online by searching {name} garter stall plate, or something like that) usually show the mantlet colours and the 'animal' usually used as livery colours and badges, as helmet decoration.



This one is Sir William Chamberlain (KG c.1461), so it's probable that his livery was red and white and his badge a white ass... or possibly a gold shell.

It's not an exact solution, as for example, it shows Northumberland and Salisbury with the same colours (red and black), which doesn't make sense if they were 'at war' with each other (a bit confusing at least), although there are a number of possible explanations. However it more often ties up with what livery colours are known, than when it doesn't.

The 'Livery Colours' Book, is a good one and I'm sure you'll be happy with it. However if possible, try and cross-check the less famous ones, as nobody is perfect and mistakes get made.   

[Elk101]

That's a great tip Arlequin, thank you. In anticipation of restarting my failed WotR project from about 6 years ago (no buy in from others) I've downloaded the flags from Grimsby Wargamers and picked up a few of my books again. Looking forward to getting the Freezywater book too.

[Atheling]

In short. Buy the lot.

They are most definately worth it  .

Darrell.