Who makes the best figures for Crusader era Daylami?

[olicana]

Apart from the fact that these guys came out of the mountains in what is modern day Gilan Province in Iran, that they were warlike and much respected as good mercenaries, I know very little about these guys.

Who makes the best figures? I would like to fight them alongside a Perry collection, so a similar style and size would be great.

[Atheling]

The nearest you are going to get is the Footsore Daylamites from the Caliphate range.

Possibly early in their look but they are the only ones on the market that I can think of.

I was given a number of them by Bill when he was still sculpting the Caliphate range (and still Musketeer miniatures) which I'm going to be using as Isaurians in my Early Byzantine army. According the the illustrations in the Montvert Justinian's Wars book they are a very close fit.

https://footsoreminiatures.co.uk/collections/armies-of-the-caliphates
Pics:

[olicana]

I've seen those but, Footsore are much more heavily built than Perry.

I thought I might use the four Turkish infantry with a 'coat' on from this pack, perhaps converting a score of the heads by chopping the crown of the skull off, refashioning the hair line, and adding some of those conical helmets (using Milliput / green stuff), which isn't beyond me. I was hoping not to have to, but it's only two units of 22 figures.



Some from these packs could be used as command figures.





Atheling, do you, by chance, have any pictures of polearms called the "sabarbara" ? I think these must be the weapons of troops that army lists call "Adhath glaivemen" or "Adhath 2HCW". The weapon is described by D. Nicolle as a broad bladed spear, more than 5 cubits (229cm) long of which 3 cubits (137cm) was blade. I want some!

[Atheling]

I think the proposed conversions will work well- they will probably better represent the Daylamites then the earlier footsore mini's.

Atheling, do you, by chance, have any pictures of polearms called the "sabarbara" ? I think these must be the weapons of troops that army lists call "Adhath glaivemen" or "Adhath 2HCW". The weapon is described by D. Nicolle as a broad bladed spear, more than 5 cubits (229cm) long of which 3 cubits (137cm) was blade. I want some!

I have not got a clue! It's the first time i have even hear of a "sabarbara". It almost sounds like a double edged sword or at least wielded in that manner.

Is there a Crusading Warfare Forum of some description out there? You often get them run by computer console gamers..... since the decline of militaria fora that's all I can really think of... sorry.

[olicana]

Actually, I was grasping at straws.

I found out about the weapon when rereading Nicolle's Crusader Warfare vol.2 the other night. I read that there is virtually no archaeological record of Islamic weapons and armour dating from earlier than the 16th century, and even after that it's virtually all Ottoman, Indian or Persian. There may be some 'Arabic' stuff in private collections but, it's all unverifiable.  Most of the info we have has been obtained from contemporary artwork, such as it is. When it comes to Islamic arms and armour of  the Crusader period, western scholars simply scratch their heads.

Apparently there is a huge argument between western and eastern scholars of what, from the earlier period, is genuine and what's not. It all sounds screwy to me.

Edit: There is a picture of a broken weapon head that looks like a big spearhead in one of the Ospreys with the description "glaive?". It could look like that I suppose. It looks a bit like a broad bladed medieval 'boar spear' without a quillion. If it is that, the blade would be at least 6-8" wide at the base, tapering for its entire length to the quite rounded tip, though the roundness might be due to corrosion. Pity it's a broken 'glaive' head, broken near the top?.

[Atheling]

Actually, I was grasping at straws.

I found out about the weapon when rereading Nicolle's Crusader Warfare vol.2 the other night. I read that there is virtually no archaeological record of Islamic weapons and armour dating from earlier than the 16th century, and even after that it's virtually all Ottoman, Indian or Persian. There may be some 'Arabic' stuff in private collections but, it's all unverifiable.  Most of the info we have has been obtained from contemporary artwork, such as it is. When it comes to Islamic arms and armour of  the Crusader period, western scholars simply scratch their heads.

Apparently there is a huge argument between western and eastern scholars of what, from the earlier period, is genuine and what's not. It all sounds screwy to me.

Maybe contact the Royal Armouries but I expect you will reach the same level of contention and varied opinion there too(?)

[olicana]

It's a thought. RA is just down the road in Leeds.

P.S. edited last post after remembering some pencil drawings in Saladin and the Saracens (Osprey).

[SJWi]

Gripping Beast also produce two packs of Daylami in their Armies of Islam range. They look more compatible in style to the Musketeer figures than the Perry range.

[aphillathehun]

I made some Daylami using Aventine Sassanid spearmen with Gripping Beast shields and transfers:

https://paintingdistractions.wordpress.com/2016/01/02/aventine-daylami/

[olicana]

Now that is the ticket. You talk about heads, are Aventine heads supplied separately - e.g. multi part figures?

Thanks in advance, because those are the best bet I've seen. love those heads!

[aphillathehun]

Yes, and they have a bunch of different head sets.  I thought these were kind of perfect for what I wanted, but they have parthian heads, armored steppe tribes heads, unarmored steppe tribe heads, probably new stuff with the Byzantines.  If you haven't bought from Aventine before, they are a pleasure to deal with.....

I was very pleased that Gripping Beast sold me just the shields and transfers.

[Atheling]

Now that is the ticket. You talk about heads, are Aventine heads supplied separately - e.g. multi part figures?

Thanks in advance, because those are the best bet I've seen. love those heads!

A word of warning, as beautifully sculpted as the Aventine Miniatures are, they are larger then the Footsore miniatures so if you're worried about the Footsore mini's being a misfit with the Perrys......

[olicana]

The Footsore "Caliphates range" match pretty well for height but, like most minis, they are more heavily built than Perry minis. Having said that, providing you don't mix them within a unit they look fine together. Here, my Footsore Arab archers skirmish a little way out in front of my Perry Arab infantry (photo  before rebasing the armies into three stand units).



If Aventine are a lot taller, perhaps I'll have to change my mind again and just go with Footsore for simplicity. Going the Footsore route for some things might actually make life easier later. I want to add Fatimids, and the closest I've come to finding a good stand in for Sudanese Ghulam foot archers are Footsore's Black Guard archers. I'd use Gripping Beast for the Sudanese spearmen.

 


 

[Atheling]

The Footsore "Caliphates range" match pretty well for height but, like most minis, they are more heavily built than Perry minis. Having said that, providing you don't mix them within a unit they look fine together.

I think they will be fine if you should that route. I've got Artizan Designs, Footsore, Saxon (now sold by Warlord) and Perry (granted only a casualty) in this unit of Black Guard and they fit very well- IMHO of course:

If Aventine are a lot taller.....

Slightly taller then average and slightly bulkier too.  I really don't think they would make such a huge difference unless you were to include them with the Perry stuff; then there would certainly be noticeable differences.

Probably also worth mentioning that, as I'm certain you know, painting can be a leveller when it comes to size differences.

Please post up pics of what you decide to go for.