GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery

[Grumpy Gnome]

Fair point Jon_1066.... perception often trumps reality.

As for movies and chinstraps... there is also a bit of the chicken and the egg, considering how many WW2 GI’s may have been influenced by their silver screen heroes in films made during the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:World_War_II_films_made_in_wartime

[Harry Faversham]

I‘d like to hear more about what you think constitutes real soldiers though Harry Faversham.

Discipline and excellent junior leaders for starters.
Rick, you seem to be somewhat prone to bouts of fisticuffs, with the exception of your time as a UK Plod meeting only saintly US Servicemen? This is very interesting as I once saw something very similar. We were in Torbay on holiday, well over 20 years ago. Overnight half the Yank Navy turned up in the bay, escorting the President of the Americans to Normandy for a big D-Day Anniversary. That evening landing craft brought the Yanks on shore leave, their behavior and manners were impeckable, not one incident of drunkenness and no US Servicemen fell foul of Plod. We were very impressed, those lads were a credit to their country and it's uniform.
The next night the RN turned up for a run ashore in the same landing craft thingys. By 8 o'clock Torquay was a warzone, drunken matelots swinging from gaslamps, gutters running with piss and vomit and young lasses groped as their boyfriends were set upon. This drink fueled riot was only terminated by mass reinforcements of Plods from surrounding areas, order was not restored till the early hours of the morning.
Your related experience as a UK copper kind of reminded me of that night.

 

[Grumpy Gnome]

My lack of locking up fighting GI‘s was mostly based on very few of them get to North Wales, compared to the number of RN (big port) and squaddies (thanks to their exchange deployments at Fort Lewis) get to Seattle. I seem to recall only one American criminal I dealt with in my time with NWP but I did not need to use force on him and I do not recall him being military.

Edit: Your experience in Torbay is interesting but I have seen so many instances of rowdy US and UK personnel as well as well behaved US and UK personnel that I can not say one nation’s military is any more or less disciplined than the other.

In other situations I have seen, been involved with and occasionally was a rowdy soldier myself... both in US and UK service. I have hardly been a saint, especially back in the days when I still drank alcohol. I have not drank in a couple of years now, for the curious. Whilst I do not go out of my way to look for a fight, I do not shy away from them either. As a specially trained Taser officer in NWP I was dispatched to more violent calls than the average Bobby.

As for what constitutes real soldiers, discipline and good junior leaders is a fine starting answer but that also applies to good fast food restaurant staff.

Good soldiers need to be able to fight. To kill.

EDIT: Although Ray makes a fair point about corpsmen/medics... so there exceptions to the requirement to fight/kill. I should add when it comes to fighting, I mean accept the possibility of being killed. Lots of excellent soldiers are medics not killing but risking death in the execution of their duties.

It’s a balancing act. You need people that can kill but you need them not to become monsters. This seems to be a reoccurring problem in the US, UK and as recent headlines point out Australian militaries. I tended to favor more strict discipline back in the day compared to my colleagues, being compared to Captain Bligh on more thanked occasion. People seem to forget his leadership got the survivors in his longboat home... but I digress.

I served active duty and National Guard. For a time I was with the National Guard element of the 10th Mountain Division in NY. Despite being a Berlin Brigade trained martinet I had one guy in my squad that I bears mention. He was illiterate. He had trouble speaking in an understandable manner. He was a slob. He day he joined our unit he walked on foot, many miles from a rural region outside Albany, when asked why he wanted to join he said, “I dun herd youse get gud bootz”.  He was a nightmare in garrison. Whilst we never went to combat together there are few people I would have chosen over him to go. He was brilliant in the field. Sharp, never lazy, excellent woodsman skills, brave, a great marksman, not squeamish with butchering animals, no matter the weather or difficulty of the march he kept high morale (cheering folks up around him with his incomprehensible jokes). Granted it was only a training exercise but we had to do a night time (first time I had seen an entire platoon issued NVG’s, must have been 1993) trench cleaning operation with MILES gear. Him and I caused great havoc clearing our section of the trench but I will be the first to admit he did the bulk of the work. The big, sloppy dope was a warmachine. And yet, he was such a good natured, kind hearted guy that I can not see him being the one to shoot civilians or hurt kids.... which is clinically referred to as collateral damage with a wink by too many monsters in uniform.

So was he a good soldier despite having two left feet during parade? I believe he was.

Or the Gulf War combat vet who was one of my most technically proficient soldiers but was a pain in the ass to motivate when it came to what he referred to as peacetime mickeymouse bullshit? He often appeared sloppy and lazy but once motivated (the usual shouting did not work) he was faster and more accurate than most of the platoon (mech infantry at that point 81st Infantry Brigade in Washington State). And unlike most of us had seen combat. He lacked the spit and polish of many of the other US and UK soldiers I served with. Was he a good soldier in your opinion? He was in mine.

But these guys brought something in exchange... they did not just dismiss parade ground discipline and uniform regulations out of laziness. They just were not wired to value those things. One never had it. The other had it but lost it when what he saw in combat changed his view on priorities. I disagreed with him but I listened to his viewpoint and adapted my leadership style to deal with him as part of my unit.

Now all my experiences are my own, from my own perspective. Most of the real violence I have dealt with has been from a policing perspective but everything since my Basic Training in 1988 has been put through a military lens filter... even the policing.

Did WW2 GI’s wear chinstraps as per regulations? Not so much according to photographic evidence as well as Hollywood Films. Why? Laziness? Maybe. Misplaced fear of a mythical battlefield risk? Maybe. Did wearing chinstraps on their helmets or not make them better soldiers? I doubt a chinstrap makes or breaks a soldier. But it is too broad a subject I think to make a real assessment. Helmet graffiti, not shaving, hands in pockets... these might annoy NCO’s but without specific unit context you can not really assess their impact on the unit. Sometimes these things are indicators of rot in a unit, of poor discipline, low morale. But sometimes they are indicators of a certain esprit de corps.

Watching an old Sharpe movie with my missus an officer berates Sharpe for being unhappy with his administrative logistical assignment, Sharpe saying he was a soldier and should be doing real soldiering. Te officer accused Sharpe of just wanting to swan around like a bloody pirate. And that struck a chord. Sometimes soldiers just want to swanaround like bloody Pirates.... the question is, do they deliver as the fictional Sharpe so often does?

As a Yank serving with the British I got tired of British folks going on about how much better they were than Yanks. Serving with the Yanks I got tired of hearing other Yanks go on about how much better they were than the British. I have gotten tired of Marines (US and UK) going on about how much better they are than everyone else. I am even tired of the grunt sense of superiority that I was so vigorously conditioned to believe as an infantryman. I have seen too many individuals defy stereotypes over the years. This is why I support allowing women into infantry and special operations combat roles. Let the merit of the individual decide.

Someone wants to paint miniature GI’s with some historical accuracy... have some wearing chinstraps and some not. There is historical footage and photos to support it. I saw a historical re-enactors webpage discussing the most accurate percentage of by the book buckled  chinstraps to those fastened around the brim and those left dangling loose. Unfortunately I can not seem to find that website again. I seem to recall dangling loose was the same as buckled under the chin but the majority being buckled at the brim.

[Harry Faversham]

Thanks for that Rick, we've both strayed a tad off topic but your reply has certainly made me have a think about Soldiers, training and discipline. Almost all the lads I knew who served in the Falklands were out of the Army within 12 months of it ending. They couldn't re-adapt to what they'd come to see as 'playing at being Sowjers'. Most made a valiant attempt to drink themselves to death in the years that followed, several succeeded. Bit sad that, innit?

[Wellington]

Very interesting discussion!

Short question whats means "Sowjers"? I didn't find a translation.

[Westfalia Chris]

Very interesting discussion!

Short question whats means "Sowjers"? I didn't find a translation.

It's a Harryism, i.e. it's Harry trying to be funny by (mis-)spelling "soldiers" "funetikally". 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FunetikAksent

Also, please keep this hobby-related, chaps.

[Grumpy Gnome]

During my time in, and I served with some Falklands vets, there was definitely an unhealthy alcohol drinking culture that all too easily slipped into deadly alcohol abuse during and after service. I was not a serious drinker until I joined. Whilst I managed my drinking responsibly most of the time I slipped up at times. It is all too easy. Which is why I gave up alcohol altogether... even though I really miss a good bourbon or mead from time to time. That however is as you say off topic. EDIT: My apologies Chris.

Harry will have to explain exactly what he meant but I took it to be a reference to the accent taken by many a salty old British squaddie (Contemporary British slang term for soldier) when saying the word “soldier”. I may have misunderstood him.

[jon_1066]

With "sowjer" think more parade ground sergeant bawling it at the top of his lungs.  Usually lumped with some questioning of the ability of the sowjers he is berating.

[Grumpy Gnome]

Finally found it.

http://90thidpg.us/Research/Original/M1HelmetNormandy/Conclusions.html

Quite interesting because it includes a survey of soldiers in 1944 about their chinstrap usage.

[jon_1066]

Pretty conclusive for '44. Also pretty conclusive the higher ups weren't bothered as there is a shot of Monty pinning a medal to a GI's chest complete with chin strap behind the helmet. 

[Truscott Trotter]

Would be interesting to see other nations figures if they had them particularly Soviet and German

[Harry Faversham]

I once heard Richard Burton read this on the radio..

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

He pronounced the last word as 'Sowjer', it made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Obligatory hobby related thingy...



 

[cuprum]

In the Soviet army, in the same way, helmets were often worn without fastening a belt. Moreover, many officers and soldiers simply threw away their helmet as an unnecessary burden, preferring additional freedom and speed of movement to protection. There was a fashion for not wearing a helmet. And this led to significant unjustified losses. The command tried to take action, but apparently not persistently enough.







And so on:

https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8B%20%D0%B2%20%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%85&from=tabbar

[cuprum]

I read somewhere that in the German army for not wearing a helmet one could get under the sentence of a military tribunal, as for deliberate self-harm.
But I cannot vouch for the veracity of this statement.