Retinue equipment and heraldry questions for both knights and sergeants

[MiniPigs]

If one is doing skirmish level Barons war circa 1200-1300ish look and you want to do a given Lord in all his panoply and barded horse with appropriate heraldry on his surcoat/shield/barding/pennon, how do you handle his banner bearer or bearers?

Assuming having a banner bearer is de rigeur, I imagine he would have an unbarded horse and open faced helmet? Would he have a heater shield or a kite shield? Would he wear a surcoat or have plain mail? Could he be a full knight with his own coat of arms but carrying his lord's banner?

I take it a sergeant wouldn't wear anything reflecting his lord's coat of arms, at least directly. Thus, you wouldn't have him wearing the same colors or devices?

Feel free to set me straight here.

[has.been]

To make life easier on the wargames table,
I keep things simple & to a theme.
Standard bearer I treat as a member of the retinue, not as a knight.
Members of the retinue (ordinary soldiers) wear their Lord's colours .
e.g. Lord has quartered shield (Black & yellow) with alternative swan & axe devices.
The retinue I would give (Tabards etc.) halved black & yellow, with (maybe) either
a swan or an axe above the heart.
This makes it easy for me to see which soldiers belong with which knight.
Hope this helps you.

[Unlucky General]

Minipigs,

From what I see from the community who play Baron's Wars or any skirmish level games, the retinues resemble a modern football team more that perhaps a genuine historical retinue.

Of course the middle-ages or medieval period is a very broad span of history and much changed through the ages and across the regions. Even in the thirteenth century we are talking a 100 year span with quite a number of developments taking place along that 100 year time-line.

I personally don't think that the sort of livery retinues we often see were much in evidence at the time but I also imagine that would vary greatly depending upon the wealth and status of the 'lord' or baron. By the Wars of the Roses (to use a tag) you've got some uniformed retinues with badge devices but again, I doubt it for the thirteenth century. But that's not to say they couldn't have - absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence as the saying goes.

I'd recommend staying away from anything which would confuse the status and identity of the knight. They meant to stand out and be identified - it served as almost as significant a form of social protection as their armour did.

As for you standard bearer - if he's holding the standard then you know who he's with. I'm inclined to view the great helm as a crash helmet worn for a specific reason for a specific period of time in battle - to be discarded ASAP. Consider how impractical shouting orders must have been encased in a steel bucket. I'd suggest everyone except a mounted knight would have a open faced helm and may have had mail, definitely had gambeson etc.

My soldiers have irregular equipment and clothing but a field sign - say an arm band of a certain colour and/or an improvised shield sign such as a cross.

[Dolnikan]

All my medievals are done up as little retinues following single knights. So usually, there will be one knight and then a few footsoldiers/lighter horsemen with shields with the same icons. It's probably not very historical, but it's a look that I like. I mean, if the footsoldiers just have simple shields, that makes it look so boring.

[Patrice]

The status of the bearer would depend on the status and wealth of the leader.
A local knight with not many followers would give his standard to a truthful sergeant... because he has nobody else.
A baron powerful enough to have knights under him (as would be required to be a baron) would have his banner carried by one of these knights, who would have their own heraldry.

Things will change a bit later, in the 14th century, when there are more and more squires who have noble status but not rich enough to be knighted.

[has.been]

From what I see from the community who play Baron's Wars or any skirmish level games, the retinues resemble a modern football team more that perhaps a genuine historical retinue.

Modern Football team, eg Manchester United.
The first team (the Baron) = The latest, up to date, expensive full kit (shirts, shorts, socks)
Dedicated long time Supporters (The main retinue)= maybe expensive latest shirt, but maybe
                                                                             older (classic) shirt.
Fair weather fans = probably A team shirt, with or without a scarf/wooly hat in team colors.
The 'Big Event' followers (Cup match) = Scarf/wooly hat in team colours, maybe a rosette,
                                                            purchased on the way to the match.

 

[MiniPigs]

What might Edward I's livery have been? I read that bowmen/crossbowmen might wear a red cross on a white tunic or gambeson but if they had a shield would it more like also have a red cross on white or a yellow lion on red?

[bluewillow]

Tough as there is not much evidence for late 12th early 13th, but we do have cloth records for purchase of cloth in a single colours, particularly by the second barons war, and the earliest field badges apart from a cross.

you are on the right path though

Lord in heraldic surcoat, shield and horse barding, ony he or his sons would wear this, not the whole retinue.
Gonfanon bearer, A knight in his own heraldry or a sergeant in tabard block colour, with a badge left, centre or right breast.
retinue block colour or perhaps parti coloured tabard if they wore one, most often just in a gamberson either natural or in a simple colour to achieve light greens, browns, pinks and mauve  with a field sign sewn on the chest or worn on a arm (armband) in a block colour.


The only reference I have for Edwards I livery was red and white with no reference to a cross, whilst artwork has a white tabard with a red cross, but it is 14th century.

cheers
Matt