When to retire wizards?

[GHoooSTS]

I've been playing Frostgrave for about six months now and have a few wizards. They're all at different stages of their careers, but my Sigilist in particular is pretty powerful now. Somewhere around level 25, which a high-quality band of soldiers and adorned with all kinds of magic items. We just finished a branching campaign I wrote and at the end me and my opponent were both thinking of retiring our wizards and starting the campaign again with new ones.

Another reason I'm looking at retiring some of my wizards is that in various campaigns, the power gaps between them is widening. This snowballing effect is pretty common in campaign games and eventually just doing a hard reset isn't a bad idea.

When I first picked up Frostgrave and found the Transcendence rules I remember being interested but wondering if I'd ever play enough to get to that point--I also didn't like that ultimately it was decided by a single die roll. A friend and I toyed with changing the campaign 'ender' to each wizard needing all spells in their school, then doing a sort of raid mission where if they killed the enemy wizard, they would catapult themselves to transcend using their opponent's magical essence.

I'm curious about when other people decide to retire wizards, why, and how many games you tend to get out of them. Also, how have you ended campaigns? If you played with the Transcendence as written, how long did it take? Was it satisfying?

[CPalmer]

   Only retired one Wizard so far, after an 11 game campaign.  He was an Illusionist who ended his career at level 29. Eventually the hard life of the city wore on him; he lost a dear friend who was a Templer, her twin sister (reused same figure  ), and a young apprentice, as well as numerous other soldiers along the way. So he returned home to his tower to study, reflect on what he had experienced, and write his memoirs.

  As a group the players in the campaign all agreed to start over with new wizards in our current campaign to have the fun of trying new things.

[Coenus Scaldingus]

That moment when they don't seem to be breathing anymore and there hasn't been a noticable heartbeat for a good minute seems an appropriate time to let them go (make sure to loot their corpses for all magic gear of course).


The way we tend to run things, it's more a case of running a campaign rather than a warband. My most experienced group was from a run that had a few scenarios from the rulebook (5 or so) followed by the full Lich campaign. Defeating the Lich and his minions seems a good ending, more so when my own little wizard (surviving the cataclysm with her Ring of Slow Fall) succesfully became a Lich after the game! Seen comments debating why anyone would attempt that spell given the limited benefits and big risks, but boy, did that D20 roll feel epic. Think she made it to level 40+, which I would say is as long as I'd run one: learned plenty of new spells, got all the gear I liked and lowered my favourite spells to decent casting levels. It only was a two-player campaign, with a decent gap between our wizards (13-14 levels or so), but that was mainly because his wizard died, replaced by a -10 level apprentice. Games were still tense and great fun all the way to the end.

Additionally, there are just so many fun spells and combinations to use that it seems a shame to keep playing just one group/wizard. Used about 5 warbands over the past years in total, and there still are a plenty of spells or themes I'd like to explore.

[jp1885]

My main wizard is level 50-something, as is his nemesis'. That's after the main rulebook scenarios and halfway through the Lich Lord. If he doesn't achieve transcendence before the Final Battle, he'll probably retire after that (assuming he survives).

[Roger]

I must admit as nice as it is to get a high level wizard , 30+ in some cases the games can get a little repetitive . All your men are tooled up to the max,
you tend to get into the same sort of maneuvers , cast the same spells, rinse and repeat ad infinitum.
So we tend to get to that stage and start again. Making up a new starter warband isnt a real time consuming affair either.

Thats a good time to start experimenting with different house rules, if everyone is starting from scratch then it isnt an issue.
As i mentioned in an earlier post, using playing cards for individuals is the one that changed the dynamic drastically,( it wasnt my idea i read it somewhere on here I think. If I knew who it was I'd give them the credit )        
Gone are all your pre set moves and group activating,if you have a fun group you play with  its worth a try when everyone is starting, If you dont like it
at the end of the game you just ignore the results and start again .

Thats the one thing that makes this game stand head and shoulder above any other game I've played. you can home rule the hell out of it and most times
It works very well.
Have fun with it .
Roger

[Roger]

Re Coenus Scaldingus comment

This is another "house rule" thing, if there is only 2 of you playing and the Wizard dies.
Just rule that the apprentice runs to the potion maker , gives him 500 g , even if you have to sell men or gear to make it up, and buy an elixir of life.
the penalty has been paid ,maybe no treasures plus your down by 500g , But the Wiz is back , or make him miss a game , or whatever, you decide.
It save the massive level difference , and keeps the game pretty even.
Playing a badly lop sided game takes some of the fun out of it , and thats what we play for
Sorry for the Hijack, just wanted to add that in

Roger

[WallyTWest]

I do think the primary campaign goes on a little past its welcome- I've played two campaigns of this, transference is the defecto campaign ending but we ended those respective campaigns with a Narative event.

Our first campaign ended with a zombie invasion, after week 6 we all decided to play our respective wizards against a wave assault is zombies, followed by a showdown by the two highest scoring surviving Warbands against one another for the litch Kings throne. (8 Zombies, 12 Zombies, 16 Zombies exc- no upper limit.)

The second campaign it was the first two players who completed the list of 10 Narative games, oddly enough not the two strongest Warbands- and they fought over the remains of a age of sigmar gate discovered in the ruins that teleported to a 2x2 khorne themed table with victory going to whomever stayed the deamon prince. When they found out what was on the other side of the portal- they forgave their differences and both focused on slaying the greater deamon.... Only to both be killed. We decided the campaign ended on a proper dark note rather fittingly unresolved.

Secret is not to retire, secret is an awesome Narative finish that leaves everyone celibrating.

[Stepman3]

The apprentice decides to overthrow his teacher in an epic clash of magic. The soldiers loyalties are tested and fight each other...

[Darkson71]

When they stop being fun for you to play & for your opponents to face.

Same as we used to do with our Necromunda gangs, Mordheim warbands and Blood Bowl teams.

Then occasionally bring them out for special occasions.

[GHoooSTS]

Thats a good time to start experimenting with different house rules, if everyone is starting from scratch then it isnt an issue.
As i mentioned in an earlier post, using playing cards for individuals is the one that changed the dynamic drastically,( it wasnt my idea i read it somewhere on here I think. If I knew who it was I'd give them the credit )       
Gone are all your pre set moves and group activating,if you have a fun group you play with  its worth a try when everyone is starting, If you dont like it
at the end of the game you just ignore the results and start again .

Thats the one thing that makes this game stand head and shoulder above any other game I've played. you can home rule the hell out of it and most times
It works very well.
Have fun with it .
Roger

We've also more or less sidestepped wizard death in a similar manner, assuming the warband does whatever is necessary to keep the Wizard alive.

Secret is not to retire, secret is an awesome Narative finish that leaves everyone celibrating.

Agreed especially with the last bit. At the end of our narrative campaign the two wizards both died fighting a Frost Giant trying to cast a spell that would re-freeze Frostgrave--the only reason all wasn't lost was a Marksman hidden in a nearby ruin who managed to headshot the giant in a very climactic moment.

I also do like a kind of 'last stand' scenario with endless waves of enemies, and the last man standing moving on to transcendence.

The apprentice decides to overthrow his teacher in an epic clash of magic. The soldiers loyalties are tested and fight each other...

This is a fairly rad idea that I'll try sussing out mechanics for. I quite like it.

Thanks for the ideas everyone!