viking helmet and javelins?

[Parrot]

How long were spectacle helmets used by Vikings?  are these early or later designs?  would anyone else have used them?  I was looking over my unpainted black tree Vikings and noticed that a good number of them are wearing that type of helmet.

Also, how do you, if you do, differentiate between spears and javelins on models?  I have been thinking about using small thin shorter wire northstar spears for javelins and longer thicker northstar pikes for spears, slightly cut down.  But I thought I saw something online about Breton javelins being 7-8 feet long, which made me wonder if there was really much difference between the appearance of javelins and spears at the time?

[Ruarigh]

The Gjermundbu helmet (the one with spectacles) is the only Viking helmet ever found. It's late tenth century. The Vendel and Valsgärde helmets are typologically similar, with some having spectacles, so it's likely that the spectacle-type helmet was in use from the late pre-Viking Iron Age in Scandinavia through to the late tenth century. At some point in the eleventh century, helmets with nasals became more common. I don't think we can really say much more than that.

I'm not sure that there was any functional difference between javelins and spears, although spearheads of different sizes have been found.

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

The plastic Dark Age warriors set have longer thicker spears and shorter thinner ones  -presumably javelins.  From a distance they are hard to tell apart.
For individually based figures I do the following: spears and other melee warriors are on square bases, archers and javelin chuckers are on round bases.

[Patrice]

I use shorter/thinner wire for javelins, and longer wire for spears.

[Codsticker]

 would anyone else have used them?

It seems to me that many Sassanid and early Muslim cavalry figures are modeled with a variation of the spectacle helmet.

[ayak333]

Spectacle helmets likely appeared around the baltic and into Russia. The slonim helmet is an 11th century spectacle helmet found in western belarussia, so it was likely used by the balts, slavs, or descendants of varangians. The sassanid helmets referenced above are similar to spectacled helmets but their usually a helmet with a mail coif connected to the entire base of helmet with hole for the eyes. I dont know the actual archaeological finds they are based on though.

[OSHIROmodels]

A lot of years ago when I used to play WH Historical me and a mate played Vikings and Saxons and his solution for javalin armed troops was to have a couple of javelins held in the shield hand along with one in the throwing hand.

They tended to be a bit shorter than normal spears as well.

cheers

James

[Patrice]

A lot of years ago when I used to play WH Historical me and a mate played Vikings and Saxons and his solution for javelin armed troops was to have a couple of javelins held in the shield hand along with one in the throwing hand.

Yes that's an idea too.
...although some troops could be armed with a spear and two javelins (e.g. "Arthurian" sub-Roman British cavalry).

Also, some rules accept that spears may be thrown (once).

But it's necessary to differenciate them for the game. I had a player who changed his mind about which weapon his troops were carrying, depending on what they had to fight in the first encounter of the skirmish...

[OSHIROmodels]

Obviously best to agree it with your opponent before playing, unless...

I had a player who changed his mind about which weapon his troops were carrying, depending on what they had to fight in the first encounter of the skirmish...

That's just wrong 

cheers

James

[Ruarigh]

Spectacle helmets likely appeared around the baltic and into Russia. The slonim helmet is an 11th century spectacle helmet found in western belarussia, so it was likely used by the balts, slavs, or descendants of varangians.

Do you have a reference for the Slonim helmet? I did a quick google and came up largely blank, although what I did find resembled the helmet from Valsgärde 8. That's second half of the 7th century, so you could be looking at Swedish fashion being exported eastwards. It would be interesting to know more about eastern helmet fashions and their connection (if any) to Scandinavia.

Valsgärde 8:

[Codsticker]

The sassanid helmets referenced above are similar to spectacled helmets but their usually a helmet with a mail coif connected to the entire base of helmet with hole for the eyes.

Yes, now that I think about it, that is correct.

[ayak333]

This is a replica of the helmet, also the helmet is dated to the 12th century. Text in english is scarce sadly.

[Ruarigh]

This is a replica of the helmet, also the helmet is dated to the 12th century. Text in english is scarce sadly.

Thank you. Interesting to see it. I presume most of the sources about it are in Belarusian or Russian?

[ayak333]

http://briai.ku.lt/downloads/Bugys_Paulius.pdf This is a lithuanian paper on Lithuanian armor between the 13th century to 16th century.  The author designates the slonim helmet as a baltic cultural creation. in my opinion, yes its indigenous to the region but the creator was likely a Rus black smith or a Varangian from a city. western Belarussian city states would've been polyethnic communities of slavs northmen and balts, since the territory of belarussia, especially western belarussia, woudlve had all those backgrounds involved in their city states and adjacent territories.

[Ruarigh]

Thanks for the paper. Something to read on the train ride home from work is always welcome. And, yes, that area was certainly a cultural melange.