FT for Operation Sea Lion

[Ultravanillasmurf]

I am in the process of painting up an Empress Miniatures FT tank as a tank brought out of mothballs and pressed into British service after the Fall of France.

I was wondering if anyone had thoughts on where markings would be applied. So far it has War Department number and a bridge loading circle (the weight class needs changing, to seven and a steady hand). The loading circle I think is on the wrong side.






An obvious addition would be identification symbols, in France white squares were applied, but where on the hull?

Any suggestions gratefully received.

The Bovington example is a machine gun armed version with the conical turret, this has the low pressure gun and the hexagonal turret.



Progress so far can be found here: http://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/FT

[Captain Blood]

Can't help you with the information I'm afraid, but it's an intriguing idea... you've now got me thinking about whether I ought to add a repurposed French vehicle or two to my (fairly ahistorical) British WW2 desert force. They must have picked a few up in Syria...

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Were they better than the Italian tanks they did use?

The Americans faced Vichy French ones at one point.

I was very tempted to add the Empress Miniatures FT deal to my purchases at Salute (shortage of carrying capacity was one reason not to) and build the Bovington example, an M1917 (for a Not "The Grasshopper Lies Heavy"  scenario), and a German one.

[Arlequín]

Nice start on the FT. Would it be likely that it would be used by those French troops who opted not to be repatriated after the surrender though? Which would mean you could stick to French markings. I think the white squares you are thinking of are actually 'gas paint' squares, like you have by the driver's hatch; they turn a mucky yellow when they come into contact with gas.
 

They must have picked a few up in Syria...

There were some 30 or so in Syria and the Lebanon, but really only fit for the knacker's yard, I don't think they even left their depots. The Free French took over some captured R35 tanks for ''1e Compagnie de Chars de Combat de la France Libre" though, but I have no idea whether they later used them in action in the desert, or as training tanks. Certainly they had been re-equipped with Crusaders by the time of El Alamein.   

[Captain Blood]

Interesting. Thanks for the info Jim. Maybe I won't bother with that then... 

[SABOT]

Very interesting subject and info lads.

[lou passejaire]

bad choice of French stuff , IMO ...
return of Narvik, the H39 of the 342th tank company became Free French 1st tank company, and some remain in UK till early 1941 . The only French stuff in UK was :
artillery tractors P107 and 75mm guns
12 H39 tanks - some Lorraine 37 - Somua MCL
Renault UE - Peugeot small trucks, and some cars
13th Legion Half Brigade ...
Sailors and Marines .

stop dreaming about the FT beeing repatriated after the Dunkirk desaster , most were used as blockade against Kradschutzen 
the last Somua 40 and Panhard 178 worth the value, not the FT ... even if it's one of the best choice in BA 

so your FT can be a model issued to UK in 1917 as a test , and put back to use after the Dunkirk disaster ... 

[commissarmoody]

Or just say it belongs to a museum or a private collector volunteers his little tank to the war effort.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Or just say it belongs to a museum or a private collector volunteers his little tank to the war effort.

It is " a tank brought out of mothballs and pressed into British service after the Fall of France".

It might have been a gate guard or left at the back of a barracks (or a private collector's pride and joy, I did not think of that)and not sent for scrap like the other World War One survivors.

I am surprised that any hardware got off the beach,

[Ballardian]

If pressed into British service I'd assume it'd follow the standard layout for the markings - Here's Bovingtons A13 & Vickers Light MKVII - they both have pretty much the same positioning. You could easily argue for (or against) the presence of pre-existing French markings (was it in use by one of the French units evacuated) so I imagine that there's some flexibility, hope that's of some use!

 

[Ultravanillasmurf]

(Edited to correct troop/squadron error)
Excellent, thanks.

No French markings (I have only late War stuff from Rubicon models).

As I guessed, I put the weight class on the wrong side.

Not sure if that is the white identity square on the front (as mentioned in the description of the A11 in the New Vanguard book on the Matildas) as it appears to have a D troop squadron (HQ?) Diamond on the turret side which I thought was a later feature. The A13 is first vehicle A troop squadron.

The coloured square with the number (tactical sign?) I will replicate using a late War square painted over and a white number sourced from somewhere (vague).

[fred]

I think the large white squares on early war tanks were for gas detection, not organisational markings.

The coloured square, with a number where known as serial numbers - late war they were to a standard scheme, early war there was much more variance, but red was very common for armoured regiments.

The geometric shapes on the turrets were the tactical marks, colour for squadron, shape for troop.

A web page of mine with some details on http://www.kerynne.com/games/BritishArmouredRegimentTOE.html

[Ultravanillasmurf]

Sorry.

I must engage brain before typing...
I must engage brain before typing...
I must engage brain before typing...
I must engage brain before typing...

Yup squadron, not troop (I blame too much Command Decision in my youth....).

The geometric shape is the squadron mark, colour is regiment precedence, shape is squadron.

As I mentioned, the BEF specific 12" white Identification square is described on plates A and B1 in the Matilda book, as is the gas detection panel on plate A.

[Etranger]

I think the large white squares on early war tanks were for gas detection, not organisational markings.

The coloured square, with a number where known as serial numbers - late war they were to a standard scheme, early war there was much more variance, but red was very common for armoured regiments.

The geometric shapes on the turrets were the tactical marks, colour for squadron, shape for troop.

....

The white square was the BEF recognition marking. There was often an irregular 'blob' of light green gas detector plate somewhere on the front glacis plate (bonnet for softskins). That yellowish patch on yours would be around the right colour and position.

Don't fret too much about the position of the bridge classification plate (the yellow circle) as it could vary, particularly on a non-standard vehicle.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

@fred, thanks for the link, very interesting. That will be useful when I start on the Rubicon M10 so I know what RA regiment to use.