Introducing myself to the Italian Wars - What were the armies' composition?

[FierceKitty]

The real problem is that it would have been diplomatic suicide to be seen openly cooperating with the Turks!

[Condottiere]

The real problem is that it would have been diplomatic suicide to be seen openly cooperating with the Turks!

Franco-Ottoman alliance...

Ottomans wintering in Toulon

Barbarossa's fleet wintering in Toulon 1543...

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

That's the great thing about being French - you don't need to give a crap about what other people think of you.

[FierceKitty]

I think if a Franco-Turkish army had been seen moving on Rome, the rest of Europe from Muscovy to Ireland would have joined up against them.

(Not pontificating; just off the top of my balding head.)

[Codsticker]

I think if a Franco-Turkish army had been seen moving on Rome, the rest of Europe from Muscovy to Ireland would have joined up against them.

(Not pontificating; just off the top of my balding head.)

Sounds like a great "what if?" war.

[Metternich]

  I know that these miniatures are somewhat dated, and a bit small by today's standards (between 25mm and 28mm, vice the "heroic" 28 mm of most modern makers), but wanted to point out Mirliton miniatures, which makes some interesting Renaissance figures (pretty cheap too, at 1.6 Euros) that can fill a gap in some other lines and supplement them.  The Florentine Soccer Paegent has some interesting figures that  can be used for civilians.

 http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=renaissance-florentine-soccer-pageant

http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName=renaissance-wars-of-italy-xvi-century         

[Siegfried]

I think if a Franco-Turkish army had been seen moving on Rome, the rest of Europe from Muscovy to Ireland would have joined up against them.

That would be quite true, @Kitty. Would be interesting to see how that could develop on the tabletop...

[Siegfried]

Thank you very much, gentlemen! Now I have lots of information to work with! I know for a fact that list of yours @Oli will be really useful for the near future. Thanks for sharing it.

I've made some notes from what you have said so far, and all seems to give a fairly consistent picture of how thing were then, except for one little thing that has been left untouched: the Italians. What was the standard army composition for them? Would they have fielded as many mercenaries as their european counterparts? And finally, would there have been much difference amongst the armies of the various Italian city-states?

Good luck and best wishes!
Siegfried.

[FierceKitty]

The first text to read here is our friend Macchiavelli. Keep a soupcon of the old sodium chloride handy, but bear in mind that he was there and knew what he was talking about, even if he was a bit selective too.

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

I think if a Franco-Turkish army had been seen moving on Rome, the rest of Europe from Muscovy to Ireland would have joined up against them.

Speaking from personal knowledge, I think the Irish would have sided with the French - just to hack off the English (and because the one thing we have never, ever, EVER learned from our own history is to never, ever, EVER trust the French).

[bluechi]

And who save the brits in dunkirk ?

Ok they have the white flag....the old story every time again
Mmmmhhhh or the english had no god food since Jamie (olive oil and citron in mass) why should the french help ?

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

And who save the brits in dunkirk ?

Goering and Hitler, wasn't it?

(The Irish not trusting the French is way, way different from the white flag thing, btw.)

[bluechi]

check the looses....how many frech and how many brits died in  opreation Dynamo.
Hitler says stop and Rommel and Guderian stoppt...interesting..the days and weeks bevor they give a s... about what the Oberkommando or Hitler sad. Could be that the Pervetin reserve lost. Btw an other day.

[Metternich]

Gentlemen, this is a Pike and Shot forum, not a WW II forum.

[olicana]

The first text to read here is our friend Macchiavelli. Keep a soupcon of the old sodium chloride handy, but bear in mind that he was there and knew what he was talking about, even if he was a bit selective too.

Although his work is widely available this isn't where I would go. Machiavelli was a theorist, not a military man, and his ideas, if they applied at all as written (improbable), only applied to Florence.

I think a better bet would be Michael Mallet's The Military Organisation of a Renaissance State: Venice c.1400 to 1617 (Cambridge Studies in Early Modern History). Pricey, even for an ardent enthusiast (I do not have it) but worth the trip to a library - books like this are where libraries come into their own.

If you are looking for one book for this stuff you will be looking for some time (to the best of my knowledge such a book does not exist). This period is still regarded as pretty niche, verging on the arcane. Followers of this period tend to glean what they can from multiple sources. I have these books (see link), plus a few old WRG and other war game army lists for back up: Not ideal but, nothing is in this period - especially if you don't speak multiple languages.

https://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Book%20List%20-%2016th%20Century