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Author Topic: [COMMERCIAL]28mm third crusade period -- UPDATE: SECOND WAVE RELEASED  (Read 8870 times)

Offline Khurasan Miniatures

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Thought I might start a new thread rather than bury these on page 5 of the poll from last fall. :-D

These are the first buildups for a 28mm range for the end of the 12th century. A knight typical of the period — full chain protection, Phrygian helmet, elongated triangle shield, still no surcoat. 



« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 05:25:32 AM by Khurasan Miniatures »
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Offline janner

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2019, 01:47:18 PM »
A fine start (the mount looks particularly awesome), I am assuming you are adding stirrups and leathers to the rider in due course.

I understand that there are necessary compromises in two-piece castings, but the reins do look a long way from his left hand.

The other minor point is that the thumb on the right hand looks to be placed alongside the fingers rather than gripping the spear.

Offline Charlie_

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 02:28:21 PM »
Very nice! The horse is particularly good.

It's not a period I know much about. I guess this chap represents the halfway point between between the familiar Norman Knight  (kite shield, no surcoat) and the later classic Knight image with surcoat, heater shield and heraldry? So the triangular shield and no surcoat is interesting to me.

Offline Breazer

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 03:37:52 PM »
This is going to drain my wallet. I'd love to paint some of these and make some cool pictures with them.

Offline jauntyharrison

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 08:58:07 PM »
Yep, I'm in love.

Offline von Cyrillus

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 10:17:16 PM »
Very very nice ;o)

Offline Khurasan Miniatures

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 10:45:28 PM »
Very nice! The horse is particularly good.

It's not a period I know much about. I guess this chap represents the halfway point between between the familiar Norman Knight  (kite shield, no surcoat) and the later classic Knight image with surcoat, heater shield and heraldry? So the triangular shield and no surcoat is interesting to me.

Yes, that's exactly right.  Occasionally men were wearing surcoats but they were still in the minority, and the kite shield could actually still be seen on occasion, along with this one and and early version of the heater shield. 

Offline janner

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2019, 04:42:02 PM »
Yes, that's exactly right.  Occasionally men were wearing surcoats but they were still in the minority, and the kite shield could actually still be seen on occasion, along with this one and and early version of the heater shield.

The Winchester Bible indicates that surcoats were probably becoming more common by 1189. That's not to say that they were worn by everyone, but it's hard to be certain whether their use was still in the minority or not. You'd certainly get away with magnates and bannerets in surcoats, as well as members of the more wealthy military households  :)
Winchester Bible: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=5759

Regards,

Offline jauntyharrison

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2019, 09:51:06 PM »
The Winchester Bible indicates that surcoats were probably becoming more common by 1189.

I'd take the Winchester bible with a grain of salt. Any manuscript may have been penned by several artists over the course of several decades. Although one manuscript might suggest that a thing could be possible as early as its ostensible date of creation, its more prudent to examine as many manuscripts as possible, and draw a through line of the most typical aesthetic of the period in question.

Offline AWu

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2019, 02:38:49 PM »
Hello Konrad Mazowiecki :)


Offline Tonhel

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2019, 10:45:16 PM »
I like it! Well done.  :)

Offline westwaller

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2019, 11:26:41 PM »
I like that very much! It would be good to see a varied selection of helmets of the period represented including ones with early face plates or barbers as I believe they are known.

Offline janner

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2019, 11:13:31 AM »
I'd take the Winchester bible with a grain of salt. Any manuscript may have been penned by several artists over the course of several decades. Although one manuscript might suggest that a thing could be possible as early as its ostensible date of creation, its more prudent to examine as many manuscripts as possible, and draw a through line of the most typical aesthetic of the period in question.

All sources should be treated critically and, of course, it is prudent to draw from as many sources as possible.

If we broaden our investigation to include the imagery of Great Seals, for example, it is interesting that John's of 1203 has him in a surcoat, whilst Richard I's two seals do not. They both do feature, however, long robes worn under the mail, which did not appear on Henry II's seals. There are surviving seals that have been interpreted to show Henry with some form of skirt over his mail, but they are badly worn examples and not supported by better preserved versions.  Interestingly, Richard's of 1199 depicts either an early full helm or one with a faceplate, whilst John reverts to a more traditional nasal helmet. So there is no clear through-line there.

As you'll be aware, many effigies showing knights in surcoats have been misdated. There, however, is a fabulous font in Lyngsjö Church, Sweden depicting the murder of Thomas Becket, which has knights in surcoats and bare mail. It has been dated to the late 12th Century based on another font by the same sculptor that was inaugurated in 1191. However, there is no evidence to show whether the Lyngsjö was carved before or after that.

When it comes to this issue, which other late twelfth century manuscripts from north-western Europe that depict milites in armour do you have in mind?

Offline jauntyharrison

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2019, 07:19:17 PM »
When it comes to this issue, which other late twelfth century manuscripts from north-western Europe that depict milites in armour do you have in mind?

Here are some of the manuscripts that influenced my impression of the period.

The Aberdeen Bestiary
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=3946
Arundel 157
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4081
Harley 5102
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4125
Thott 143
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4482
Morgan M.44
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=4653
Arundel 48 Historia Anglorum
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4082/12051/
Chronicle of Otto of Friesing
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5832/22737/


I'd like to stress that there certainly are credible outliers within the period of our interest such as the link that I'll post at the end of this paragraph. It is inescapably subjective to decide what volume of depictions you have to reach before an aesthetic stops being merely possible in a period, and starts being typical of a period. I do have a particular bugbear about the Winchester bible however, because it contains many gorgeous scenes depicting the typical armament of the period, and then also a couple of outlier figures that look like they might be the work of another artist's hand.

Harley Roll Y6
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=5833


Offline Anselm van Helsing

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Re: First look at 28mm third crusade period
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2019, 08:05:07 PM »
Liking this very much!

 

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