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Author Topic: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)  (Read 6405 times)

Offline tikitang

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Hi there!

I have a pretty obscure question regarding camels in WAB!

In the main WAB rulebook (1st Edition), on page 9 there is a line saying that camels do not count as "cavalry", as that term refers primarily to horses.

Later on in the book, it says that troops armed with missile weapons, that are riding on either chariots or elephants, get to shoot twice during the Shooting phase of the turn, as they don't have to concentrate on anything else, because they're not cavalry.

In the Chariot Wars supplement, there is a troop-type called Midianite Arabs, which feature in both the Israelite and Assyrian army lists. The rules say that these are two archers riding on a camel. Because there are two archers, my assumption (though this is never clearly stated) is that each of these riders gets to fire once in the Shooting phase, meaning each Midianite Arab model (camel + two riders) fires two shots per turn.

However, on a blog, I saw a guy mention that each of these models (camel + two riders) gets to fire four times in the Shooting phase, presumably because he thought that each of the riders got to shoot twice in the Shooting phase, as they are technically not cavalry, and therefore can concentrate entirely on shooting, much like chariot or elephant-mounted missile troops as mentioned in the main rulebook.

Can anyone clarify either way? Many thanks!
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Offline von Lucky

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2020, 10:59:08 PM »
I have the first edition of the WAB rulebook and Chariot Wars supplement in front of me.

I would think they get to shoot three times (rider once, passenger twice) minimum or four times (as explained by you above).

There must be an errata somewhere... but I can't find anything on it online.
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Offline tikitang

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2020, 12:25:24 AM »
The only errata I've found concerning the Midianite Arabs from Chariot Wars is that their movement should be 6, not 8. That I found in this document.

Here is a link to the blog I was telling you about. This guy, Vince, seems to be a seasoned WAB player, so I trust that he knows what he's doing, but I cannot for the life of me find out where he got the "four shots" thing from. It's a shame there are no clearer, specific rules about camel combat in the rulebook (that I can find), so I guess he just inferred this idea from the double-shooting rule that elephant/chariot mounted archers enjoy?

Offline von Lucky

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2020, 12:52:08 AM »
My reasoning is that with 2 wounds, the Midianite camel riders are more like chariots and elephants with multiple passengers. So hence there's a strong argument for 4 shots. But you can have camels with one rider, so I would argue this troop type would only get 1 shot per turn. It's unfortunate that line on page 9 about camels not being cavalry, to makes it unclear. I think there's a very strong case for 3 shots, but if your opponent agrees, 4 shots doesn't look to be overpowering them.

I haven't a copy of the second edition rules - they might make it clearer.

Offline wmyers

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2020, 08:20:18 PM »
I just checked the Version 2 rulebook and I don’t even see canals listed.

I’m not sure how many have actually ridden horses and camels, but canals are very rolling in their gait while horses are a LOT smoother to ride.

In real life you’d be lucky to get 1 shot off in a turn time!  Not to mention the rough gait should put archery at -1 compared to that of horse archery.

Elephants are fairly smooth and in an howdah you can stand on a flat platform. Same with a chariot.

Just my 2 pence.

Edit:  looking at the Stone relief from the palace of Ashurbanipal, we see depicted Assyrian troops pursuing Arabs on camels.

The images all show the rear rider turned and firing. 

Perhaps rules where fleeing camel archers can fire would be in order.  1 shot per turn, as horse mounted archers?

All of the front riders are solely engaged in piloting their beasts. Not many are even holding bows. 

Perhaps if stationary, both can fire, if moving just the rear?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 09:10:46 PM by wmyers »

Offline tikitang

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2020, 11:04:44 PM »
I just checked the Version 2 rulebook and I don’t even see canals listed.

My understanding of version 2 is that there's a profile for Roman camel-riders in the main rulebook, but no special movement/shooting rules are provided.

What I really want is to get hold of Nigel Stillman, who wrote Chariot Wars, to find out his take!

Offline wmyers

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2020, 02:51:24 AM »
What about asking Rob Broom? 

He was in charge of WAB. He now runs Scarab Games and wrote War and Conquest (WAC) which is widely touted was WAB version 3 or 3rd Edition.

http://warandconquest.co.uk/

Offline tikitang

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2020, 08:58:33 AM »
Thank you very much, I'll have a go at getting in touch with Rob.

Offline tikitang

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2020, 10:37:23 AM »
Rob did not help. Does anyone know where I can contact Nigel Stillman?

Offline TWD

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2020, 11:45:01 AM »
If it's not in any of the errata I'm not sure you're going to get an "official" answer.
That book was written what, 15 years ago, so it's hardly current and there's no longer any sort of structure that would allow official rulings or updates to be made. So I'm not sure what you're looking for exactly.
If you're going to a tournament, ask the organiser and if you've got a regular opponent(s) work out with them how they should work.

FWIW I'd only let them have one shot, because I think the "not cavalry" rule for elephants and chariots is to reflect the (comparatively) stable platform/howdah that they have. Riding a camel I imagine is much more like riding a horse than standing on a (albeit swaying and bumping) platform.

Last I heard Nigel Stillman was a postman in Newark. Often see him at Partizan.

Offline tikitang

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2020, 12:07:32 PM »
FWIW I'd only let them have one shot, because I think the "not cavalry" rule for elephants and chariots is to reflect the (comparatively) stable platform/howdah that they have. Riding a camel I imagine is much more like riding a horse than standing on a (albeit swaying and bumping) platform.

But, the rules say there are two archers, and the unit has two attacks. It seems odd to only give them one shot. And the rules do specifically say that camel riders don't count as cavalry, even if the real-life experience of riding a camel is more "wobbly" than a horse.

What I'm looking for, ideally, is to talk to Nigel Stillman to see what he intended for those units. I might have to make a trip to Partizan soon...

Offline TWD

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2020, 01:03:14 PM »
Sorry, I meant one shot per rider, so two rather than four, or three.

I can see that Nigel's insight would be interesting (assuming he can remember his intent) but beyond that you'll still have to agree with opponents/organisers how it works in practice.

Also, there's a good chance NS didn't consider the rules, he just gave them two riders because that's how many they had historically and then gave them a rough points cost without even considering the "not cavalry" thing. :)

Offline Tim Haslam

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2020, 01:43:53 PM »
Apparently, research says that the reason depictions show 2 riders to 1 camel is the fact that the Assyrians chased and hounded them across the deserts, thus they had to double up on the camels just to get away.
So it’s possible that some of the guys dismounted to fight. Early motorised infantry! Lol.

I used to love WAB, and played it for years.
I had an Assyrian army with a unit of 2 man camel riders included.
Putting the leadership 10 general behind the camels was a good way to keep them around longer on the battlefield!

Pretty sure it’s just 2 shots per camel model, but that’s still good, they also get 2 attacks.
In the end, they only work playing within the chariot war period, as soon as armies start getting armoured cav, your knackered.

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Offline tikitang

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2020, 02:36:21 PM »
Thank you all for your contributions! I think it makes the most sense that they have 2 shots. I think I'll just go for that, unless somebody can make a watertight argument otherwise. The reference to camels not being cavalry is a tad obscure, I admit, and was removed from WAB 2 (apparently) so I guess that's not really going to hold. Plus, there's no specific rules for camels the way there are for elephants and chariots, and furthermore, just to confuse matters, in Chariot Wars, the Midianite Arabs are actually classified as LIGHT CAVALRY!

Finally, given the point value of the unit (16) is roughly double that of a regular soldier, I think it's fair to say that two shots is as much as they deserve.

Offline wmyers

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Re: Warhammer Ancient Battles: Chariot Wars - Rules Question (Camels)
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2020, 04:58:03 AM »
I think your decision is a good one.

I would add that fleeing Camelot with 2 riders still on the camel can shoot while fleeing based upon the Ashurbanipal engravings showing fleeing camel troops (and the rear rider firing back).

Perhaps with a penalty?