Norman Shield Question

[thebinmann]

Hello

I was wondering if these figures represent "how it really was":



I'd always though the long strap was simple for carrying the shield, but models sugges it was also used in battle...? Maybe just for defense against a charge?

Thanks

[Captain Blood]

Well I have no idea TBH and I’ve never done Dark Age reenactment, but I have done a fair bit of stage fighting down the years. I can’t imagine it’s at all practical or effective to try to wield a two handed axe in combat, with a great big heavy lump of timber almost as tall as yourself, hanging around your neck and swinging around in front of you, getting in the way. Much more likely to be an obstruction and a hindrance than a useful defence. A fixed pavise may provide something to shelter behind, but in hand to hand combat, a shield needs to be used actively, as a weapon. I don’t see how you could realistically use a shield at the same time as a heavy, two handed weapon, requiring big swings to strike hard...

[thebinmann]

That's pretty much what I thought but I can't see why they'd make the minis like that...?

[Nordic1980s]

This link with period illustrations may be of help, there are few towards the end with quite Norman-looking armours and shields.

[thebinmann]

This link with period illustrations may be of help, there are few towards the end with quite Norman-looking armours and shields.

Thanks to both of you

[Dr. Zombie]

The strap is fine. There are several period illustrations showing warriors with that shoulderstrap. But the use with a two handed axe is just stupid. If you are swinging a large axe the only place for your shield is on your back or on the ground. And also those axes look horrible. They are certainly not axes for fighting. They look more like woodsmans axes for splitting wood and not heads.

[thebinmann]

OK

Thanks

I guess this one comes closest

[Atheling]

You would swing the shield around to your back if fighting two handed otherwise it will just become a major encumbrance.

My two penneth worth 

[Hu Rhu]

This link with period illustrations may be of help, there are few towards the end with quite Norman-looking armours and shields.

However unless I missed it, there was not a single illustration showing the use of a shield with a two handed weapon. 

[thebinmann]

Isn't the guy in the pic I posed holding the sword in two hands while chopping a head off?

[Cubs]

Isn't the guy in the pic I posed holding the sword in two hands while chopping a head off?

... and they're slung over the back/shoulder on a long strap as opposed to being held in the fist. It may be awkward, but in a milling combat, I wouldn't be unhappy if I had a shield on my back while I was concentrating on chopping stuff to my front. But the first set of figures (Crusader? Artizan?) have the shield sort of slung but also hanging on the arm, which looks very awkward and not very helpful.

[Golgotha]

Hi

They look right to me for Normans we are lucky as we have the Bayeux Tapestry

See also this picture which shows good detail of the shield straps.



Having done Medieval Reenactment myself it is definitely possible and an advantage to have a shield even if it is on ones back.

Consider the following - having two weapons a two handed axe with shield on the back and then later during the battle hold the shield and draw the sword.

[Atheling]

Hi

They look right to me for Normans we are lucky as we have the Bayeux Tapestry

Having done Medieval Reenactment myself it is definitely possible and an advantage to have a shield even if it is on ones back.

Consider the following - having two weapons a two handed axe with shield on the back and then later during the battle hold the shield and draw the sword.

That's precisely what i was saying. To perhaps be more accurate, all armour and the weapon you choose is a trade off between defence and attack. If you think of a latter example of a late 15th Century man at arms lifting his gorget to breath more efficiently in battle, it's a similar kind of trade off; to be more efficient in attack it is necessary to sacrifice some defence to improve the efficacy of attack

Back in the 11th C:

[Vonkluge]

Interesting discussion,
I have long struggled with the question of shield use. It comes into question when modeling your figures as well as how the writer of the rules you are using see shield use in battle.
I am no expert but I have studied a fair amount over the years and also have a great deal of “common sense” in the old skull. To start with going to war in those days was quite an under taking and one’s armament both for defense and attack was varied by many different factors, who you were (nobleman, peasant, soldier) and what roll you were to play on the battle field. How far were you going to travel for how long, who were you to fight…and on and on! Perhaps you had wagons with the army to transport some gear, maybe it was a raid, going on foot through a mountain pass? I feel that most combatants would have taken as much as they could to be prepared for the unexpected tempered with the burden of the gear.
Shields would have been very common for all combatants; use would have been tempered by what one was doing in the battle and that could change during the course of the battle. Imagine the initial charge of your men with their heavy two handed axes for the shock in the first rounds of combat, then the fighting becomes more packed and confused, a heavy two handed ax becomes a tough weapon to use then or is broken, stuck in another’s shield, the man then drops the ax draws his sword and swings the shield from hanging on his back to being gripped in his hand and fights on.
Even bowmen would have found shields useful when dodging arrows from the enemy or when they are ordered by their lord into melee to tip the scales of the battle. Far to many rules writers and miniatures producers discount shield use for certain troop types. It is never “black and white” certainly bowmen would not have used a shield while acting as a bowman, but while waiting and under fire or say being ambushed in the woods on the way to a battle?
I often add shields to figures slung on there backs to show this. In fact I just posted an article on my site showing viking bowmen that I have added shields to (link below)

 The figures that show the bowmen trying to shoot while also using a shield? To me this looks like pure imagination on the sculptor’s part. 

In our group we have a saying “no miniatures rules writer ever shot a bow or rode a horse, and these rules prove it”

Bill W

www.HistoricalHobbies.com

[Maxromek]

I've been a late 12th Century re-enactor for the past 8 years and have seen and done a TON of research about these things.

First of all, manuscript illuminations have to be taken with a grain of salt. They have their own allegorical "language" which means they don't always represent the exact things as they were, but often "ideas" of things. A good example is the typical Romanesque human figure, which obviously looks nothing like real people, but there are others, such as a very common omission of belts. As such, taking something very intricate like shield strapping from an illumination is tricky, as there are a lot of examples that are simply impossible to sue if they were actually real (quite a few kite shields with just a single strap).

Now, guige straps (the straps used to sling the shield on your back) were certainly used in combat on kites and later heaters, especially on horseback, where you also have to hold the reigns with the same hand. However, there are loads of examples of their being used while sword fighting as well. I have used a two handed long spear with my shield slung the way it is presented on those miniatures and it dos work. It's not ideal, as it does limit how you can use a shield, but it those offer protection. However, that's with a mainly thrusting weapon employed in a line. Two handed axes require some proper swinging and I definitely cannot see how a shield slung like that would not intervene. Granted, we can only infer how these axes were used and whether they were used in close formations or as more open linebreakers, but regardless I just don't see that happening.