Modern Air War AAR (And a naval related question)

[Commander Roj]

An after action report on a Wings At War (Tumbling Dice) homebrew variant; Gulf Clash

http://brigademodels.co.uk/mws/blog/2020/06/13/gulf-clash/

I would like to do another one soon based on action by a group from the Ark Royal against Soviet aircraft and ships, but I need help with a couple of points. I used to play some naval games way back, but I don’t have any rules handy. I would like some thoughts on the performance values for SA-N-1 Goa and SA-N-3 Goblet, plus the AS 37 Martel. Thanks in advance! Roj

[SJWi]

Commander Roj, what performance data are you looking for. Missile range? Warhead size? ECM resistance? Also, which era? Most missiles are upgraded during their life and hence performance can vary. 

[Commander Roj]

Commander Roj, what performance data are you looking for. Missile range? Warhead size? ECM resistance? Also, which era? Most missiles are upgraded during their life and hence performance can vary.

I should have said that I am thinking to set y scenario in 1976. Yes, I was a bit vague in retrospect. Nothing quite as detailed as you suggest, I have looked those up. When I said performance I meant a hit probability. I tend to feel that most surface to air/ air to air missiles were a bit over-rated at the time, largely as a result of reading the book “ Clashes” on the Vietnam air war (although there were some very specific factors present in Vietnam)

[Mako]

Hmmm, not sure on those, but given wartime performance is usually a lot less than the manufacturers' marketing department claims, you probably couldn't go too wrong with low-balling those, e.g. perhaps about a 10% chance to hit, or less, for each SAM vs. an aware and dodging fighter jet pilot.  Double that for each if the pilot is otherwise distracted, or unaware of the danger - make a skill assessment roll for that.

Double the above for bombers flying straight and level, or evading, e.g. 40% and 20% respectively per missile, assuming they're not flying NOE.  Use the fighter stats above if they are.

Not sure on the Martel.  Just checked Wiki. 

You might want to check into another set of rules, but for a wild guess, based upon the account I read, try this:

Visual Guidance - 50% chance of a hit in good weather (clear, no fog, sea mist, or clouds).  20% or less if that is present.  0% engagement chance at night.

For the passive radar homing, and the combat example provided, assume a 75% chance to hit if the missile is coded to the correct radar frequency for the target (that can't be changed after takeoff).  There is a 25% chance of the aircraft's missile(s) being coded to the correct enemy naval radar frequency.

To enhance your chances, fire a mix of TV-guided and Passive Radar Homing missiles vs. enemy targets.

I hope that helps.  Should make for a decent game.  Don't know how accurate my figure guesses are, but from real-world performance, I'd say they are about right (possibly a little too high, especially for missile evading fighters - probably more like a 5% chance to be hit by a SAM when doing that).

[SJWi]

Morning. I would agree with what has been said before but with a few caveats.

 Obviously by 1976 we were seeing the more effective 2nd generation AA Missiles that were much better than the 1960s 1st gen. The comment about manoeuvring fighters is true but these Soviet Missiles have big warheads with a big miss-distance. Bad weather and cloud can be adverse for the Missile but is equally problematic for the target as they can’t see the launch signature. Does anyone know what ECM suites 1970s naval aircraft carried?
 
 Regarding the Martel from what I know it was never fired in anger so no historic evidence. However just looking at its attributes it was fully passive ( IR or video/TV) and had a large 150kg warhead. Theoretically an impressive beast!

[Commander Roj]

Thank you both. This is helpful and in the ball park of my own considerations. Still can’t find my rules although I dug out a copy of Avalon Hills 2nd Fleet. I am not sure I was much wiser as a result of looking at that though, except that I think I might play it again! All things to consider thanks.

[Mako]

The FAA in the Falklands had little to no ECM as I recall, in 1982, so even though stuff was produced and apparently available, it seems to not have been deployed actively by many nations.

They worked during the conflict to fix that.

The Wiki article claimed 4 x French aircraft sortied, but only one fired their missile during a scrap with Libya, which is where I derived the numbers from for the Martel.

You could check the Harpoon, or Shipwreck stats for the naval SAMs and ASM.  Can't recall if the Bulldogs Away rules has stats for those, but they might as well.

[SJWi]

According to "Air War South Atlantic" the Vulcan's were equipped with ALQ-101 jamming pods, and the RAF Harriers were fitted with a radar jammer which went into one of the gun pods. This went concept to production in two weeks! I presume it was for self-protection against Argentinean Roland SAMS and radar-guided AA guns 

[Commander Roj]

I had a look at Bulldogs (I didn’t think too look there before). Data on everything but the systems I am after. I don’t have Harpoon or Shipwreck  (tempted by the latter but I haven’t done miniature sea games since the 80’s when I turned to Avalon Hill for this).  I have the Skytrex rules somewhere...(probably at my parents...) This is more about targets for an air game in 1:600, but you know how it goes...

[Easy E]

Nice to see some Cold War air combat on the table.

Are these 1/600 from Tumbling Dice or someplace else? 

[SJWi]

Commander Roj, I don't game much naval and certainly not moderns. However I know some at my club have used Shipwreck and thought they give a decent game.

[Commander Roj]

Nice to see some Cold War air combat on the table.

Are these 1/600 from Tumbling Dice or someplace else?

These are all from TD. I have a small number from Oddzial Ozmy (SAAB Viggens) and Shapeways (Tu-28, F7 Cutlass and Skyray). Hopefully more soon.

[Commander Roj]

Commander Roj, I don't game much naval and certainly not moderns. However I know some at my club have used Shipwreck and thought they give a decent game.

I am tempted by Shipwreck, but not sure I would use it now. This is primarily aerial focussed. I might try it though...

[SJWi]

Have you looked at “Fox 2 Reheat”? They are modern air combat but have SAMs and air-to-surface. I don’t own them but may be worth a look.

[Commander Roj]

Have you looked at “Fox 2 Reheat”? They are modern air combat but have SAMs and air-to-surface. I don’t own them but may be worth a look.

I know of it, but I am not familiar with it. I’ll find out. Thanks for that suggestion too.

In fact, I just managed to get a set for £3 from Magister Militum. So I may use it for my next game.