Guadalcanal Naval

[Commander Roj]

I am not exactly sure what stirred my interest to look at the Guadalcanal naval battles again. Coincidentally it was the 78th anniversary of Savo Island only a few days ago. I have done some modern gaming in the past, then embarked on using the Victory Games Fleet series, but haven’t really touched naval for 20 years. I haven’t done any WW2, largely because while I like naval games, my experience suggested they seemed better suited to board games. The Guadalcanal battles, with limited aircraft involvement and largely fought at night, are amenable to a miniatures game.

I’d like some rules suggestion/discussion. I have GQ2, but I am open to options.

I am surprised there is no naval board on LAF. Yes, it could be scattered between periods, but I haven’t seen much discussion at all. Do naval gamers hang out somewhere else?

[Plynkes]

We have over the years resisted the urge to add a new board for every last little thing. That's probably the reason. If you give in to that you can end up drowning in numerous extremely obscure and little-used boards. Even so, when I first started coming here there were quite a few less than there are now. The original boards represented the then-owner Alex's own personal interests. That's why they may have been a little uneven. They have been reorganised since, but some things still fall between the gaps.

I think it's fair to say that LAF has never been particular big on naval gaming. It might be because we've traditionally been something of an eye-candy site, and 28mm land figures tend to hog all the limelight in that regard. Some postings of spectacular naval stuff might change that, I don't know. But it probably won't change by itself.

[Commander Roj]

Fair point. I never really thought of LA as being eye candy orientated, but that is my fixation as a gamer (albeit who likes nicely painted minis too).

[robh]

There are several Naval Wargaming groups on iO, mainly ones migrated from the deceased Yahoo groups site. Some generic (eg: Naval Wargames Society and NavWarGames) others dedicated to specific rule sets.

Rules are very much a matter of what works for you, I played Harpoon and GQ for a while with people who knew the systems well but struggled to enjoy the complexity and minutia of detail, consequently I went looking for something more game and less simulation and ended up with "Naval War" the free set from: https://www.naval-war.com which play very well. Somewhere in their forum there is a discussion on the Guadalcanal Battle OOBs

My fleets are 1/3000 WW2 Atlantic and Norwegian Campaigns, they fight well but severely lack points in eye candy so don't get posted here.

[Commander Roj]

Thanks robs, that is very interesting.

[Mako]

GQ1 & 2 are good options.  IIRC, you'll need both, since 2 is really an add on to 1.

GQ3 is another option and a good set as well, with a slightly steeper learning curve than the earlier ones, but possibly worth considering.

Of course there are others too, e.g. Seekrieg, etc..

For that action, you can pit US PT Boats vs. Japanese Destroyers and larger, in addition to going toe-to-toe with DDs, CAs, BBs, etc.. too  Throw in some air vs. naval if/when you have a mind to as well.

There are also a number of very active naval groups on Facebook too, so they're worth checking out also.

[Commander Roj]

Thanks Mako. GQ 1 contains the core rules for WW2. GQ2 covers WW1 and some options for WW2. There are quite a few options. I fully intend to do some PT boats versus destroyers in due course, as well as use my Tumbling Dice aircraft (after adding more of course). Eventually I might add some 15mm ground combat too, but that is a long way off. Whether I could stitch it all together into a campaign is probably doubtful, but I am thinking...

[aphillathehun]

Tried a couple of night battles with GQ3.  They are mostly just a FAIL.  Nothing like what you read about.  I'd like to find a good set of night rules for naval battles but that may just be a bridge too far.  We did Jutland with GQ3 and it was awesome!

[Mako]

GQ1 and/or 2 have rules for night battles, which might improve your game(s).  Having a GM will be best though, and multiple players/forces, to really add to the confusion of that.

David Manley's Coastal Forces rules should be considered as well, for the smaller end of the spectrum, e.g. PT Boats vs. DDs.  He's released a number of them, including, IIRC, Narrow Seas, and Schnellboote. 

He's also got a set of naval rules out for larger vessels too, but I can't recall the name of those.  Not sure if there are rules for night actions in that.

[carlos marighela]

Some friends and I played out some of the Guadalcanal battles, probably around the time you last touched naval games, 20 or so  years ago . At the time we used General Quarters because it was quick and fun. If you want a bit more granularity for smaller battles.  It's not as migraine inducing as Harpoon but it is a lot more detailed than GQ at least that's what my memory tells me, I haven't picked it up in ages and we were using an early edition, so whether it got more complex or less in its further iterations I cannot tell you.

[carlos marighela]

Oh and here's a precis of/ beginners guide to CoS 4th edition:

http://www.admiraltytrilogy.com/cic/CaS/CaS_4th_Jumpstart.pdf

[Commander Roj]

More choices....I tempted to say I doubt it with this one just because the information required to play seems to be spread out amongst various volumes, but you never know. I will probably stick with GQ1 to start with.

Another question I am grappling with is how to reflect issues which occurred in the campaign without simulating it. On Little Wars TV the Savo Is. Battle had the IJN side thinking they were the US until contact. I am thinking maybe distill the issues both sides had then add them as random events during the series of games, and/or vary the sides a little during a campaign. It is that persistent problem of fighting a historically inspired  battle without entirely replicating it (which might not be considered a game)

[Admiral Hawke]

I'm not sure naval gamers hang out somewhere else; I think naval gaming is just a bit of a niche within a niche.

I tried GQ2, which is a minor variation of GQ1, but didn't really get on with it. It involves a lot of measuring (for each different calibre of guns), hitting and damage are abstracted in a clever but odd way that means the chance of a hit is determined by the target's armour (it's really the chance of damage), there's a lot of mental arithmetic, and I found that ships repeatedly missed their targets even at medium ranges (as there's no modifier for a ship having found the range).

I've read that GQ3 is better, but I've been reluctant to buy a set given the relative expense of the rules and my disappointment with GQ2.

I'm still looking for a set of naval rules for the age of steam that suits me.

As for reflecting some of the historical challenges, I think your idea of random events could work well (e.g. 'friendly' fire, poor communication, fear of firing on own ships etc.). Uncertain arrival times and positions could create some element of surprise for players. You could also introduce an element of chance to the orders of battle to reflect the haphazard composition of the historical forces. After all, in most of the Guadalcanal battles, both the Allies and the Japanese fought with whatever ships happened to be available in the Solomons or at Truk.

I hope you have fun finding something that works. :-)

[Commander Roj]

Thanks. At the moment I am waiting for my ships to arrive. Shame GQ didn’t deliver for you. I am reluctant to go to GQ3  also. Without a benefit for finding range I may have to add one in. I am thinking of cards for each side drawn before the game, including preparedness levels, over-confidence, ineffective systems, force mix, intervention by submarines (attack and warnings) and commander effects. Anything I can think of really after re-reading “Neptune’s Inferno”.