Where to start for skirmishes?

[Palmoin]

Hi! I was thinking about start collecting and playing some samurai themed skirmish games, but I would love to hear from your experiences to have a better idea which would fit better. I think Black Friday is going to be a good opportunity to get some nice minis and ruleset.

I've taken a look at game shows in Youtube for Kensei and Ronin and I have played Mortal Gods, which I think it's similar to Test of Honour.

Regarding Ronin, I think it's really interesting and nicely done, but the scale of the battles is smaller than what I had in mind. You control your units individually and the rules seem a perfect fit for that, but not for 10-30 miniatures for each side. Either way, since the scale is smaller and could use the miniatures from other games, it could be something accessory to the "main" game.

Kensei seems a mix of many games, but it seems to do this mix right. The scale is aparantly what I was looking for and the theme looks L5Resque, which is fine, even though I would be ignoring a little bit the fantasy part.

Test of honour: I have read both praises and negative thoughts about this one. I like Mortal Gods and I understand some of the critics may come from it being fast paced, but I don't know if the system works well for samurais. Is it too light maybe?

And then, here comes the minis! The problem with these is that I should choose the game first in order to get the proper minis, since most of them are not the generic samurai type of mini you can find in Pike and Shotte for example.

Kensei minis looks nice if a bit more...Serious? Dull even? More real? Something like that, maybe all the previous things together. They are not cheap, that's for sure, but I like how each faction is different to the others.

Minis from Footsore look really nice, with more poses, giving the impression that each mini is unique (It's a less serious game as well, and so might be the minis). It's not cheap either, and I'm not sure what has to be bought to play the game properly (card decks, for example). I don't like that I have to buy their packs in order to get some of their cards.

Minis from Northstar seem nice but since they are aimed for Ronin, yo cannot fill the ranks for the other games with these packs.

Have I missed something about these games or any other game I haven't heard about? What are your thughts about how they play? What about the minis?

Thanks in advance

[OSHIROmodels]

I would suggest Perry Miniatures for the figures. No comments on the rules I’m afraid.

[nandrin]

I second Perry Miniatures, very nice sculpts and cheaper than Kensei.
Regarding rules I am more the small scale player like Ronin but I saw a homemade SAGA adaption for Samurai which apparently works very well. I am no fan of SAGA (as I said I prefer smaller groups of Minis) but it is definitely worth looking for. I understand with serious game you mean historical, no fantasy. I am sure the guys making Kensai take their game very seriously! 

[Patrice]

To choose a set of rules you should probably ask what others gamers in your area want to play?

I should choose the game first in order to get the proper minis, since most of them are not the generic samurai type of mini you can find in Pike and Shotte for example.

Ah? If it's intended for skirmish I would think that with a small generic troop: a few samurais on foot and mounted, a group of ashigaru lancers, another squad of ashigarus with bows and some with firearms, and perhaps a few armed peasants and civilians, you'd have something quite useful and which could be adapted to different rules when you need it.
But I always think of the figures before thinking of rules, I know that many people do it the other way now.

I play Argad ...because I wrote it    it has a small extension devoted to the Sengoku Samurai period since a few years, it's a rather peculiar system not intended for competitive games and it needs scenario preparation for a good game, but anyway it can be played with any miniatures intended for other rules (if individually based) if not a first choice.

[Osmoses]

Figures are a matter of personal taste to a great extent but I would always recommend Kensei/Zenit. However, it's worth noting that they do involve some quite fiddly assembly, such as having to glue on an arm, and then connect it with another arm+hands+weapon piece. Worth it IMO, but it can be a right pain.

[Mammoth miniatures]

I personally really enjoy test of honour, it's a very easy ruleset without being overly simplistic. it does require a deck of cards which might be offputting if you prefer games without clutter.

[sundayhero]

I also like test of honour !

[Palmoin]

Wow! Thanks for the answers. I'll try to go one by one.

I would suggest Perry Miniatures for the figures. No comments on the rules I’m afraid.

Ok! Perry Miniatures seems to have a nice range of miniatures and look really nice

I second Perry Miniatures, very nice sculpts and cheaper than Kensei.
Regarding rules I am more the small scale player like Ronin but I saw a homemade SAGA adaption for Samurai which apparently works very well. I am no fan of SAGA (as I said I prefer smaller groups of Minis) but it is definitely worth looking for. I understand with serious game you mean historical, no fantasy. I am sure the guys making Kensai take their game very seriously! 

I have never played SAGA and the rulebook is out of stock here in Spain, but I'll take a look at the system to see if it fits what I was looking for

When I said serious I was referring more to their looks and poses. Kensei has fantasy, but the samurai miniatures look less "cool" than other ones, not in a bad way, they just look more realistic, the proportions more human-like and less like a cool dynamic miniature. It's a different style in the same way than infinity vs Warhammer 40k (but without such a big difference). The rulebook, by the way, is huge and looks really nice with lots of lore.

To choose a set of rules you should probably ask what others gamers in your area want to play?

Ah? If it's intended for skirmish I would think that with a small generic troop: a few samurais on foot and mounted, a group of ashigaru lancers, another squad of ashigarus with bows and some with firearms, and perhaps a few armed peasants and civilians, you'd have something quite useful and which could be adapted to different rules when you need it.
But I always think of the figures before thinking of rules, I know that many people do it the other way now.

I play Argad ...because I wrote it    it has a small extension devoted to the Sengoku Samurai period since a few years, it's a rather peculiar system not intended for competitive games and it needs scenario preparation for a good game, but anyway it can be played with any miniatures intended for other rules (if individually based) if not a first choice.

Well, unfortunately I don't know many people here willing to collet and play historical wargames, so it would depend on me to get both armies and get some friends to try it

The Pike and Shotte samurai starter army comes wiht many minis (Samurai on horse, samurai on foot, Ashigaru with yuri, bows and teppo), but I would need to buy extra packs if I want to play different factions (In Kensei, for example, it would be perfect for the Buke faction, which is the warrior one, but then you have other factions with ninjas, monks, bandits...).

I'll take a look at your rules as well, thanks!

Figures are a matter of personal taste to a great extent but I would always recommend Kensei/Zenit. However, it's worth noting that they do involve some quite fiddly assembly, such as having to glue on an arm, and then connect it with another arm+hands+weapon piece. Worth it IMO, but it can be a right pain.

Ok, I'm thinking of buying a small quantity from each store and then compare, since they all look very good. The Kensei ones, though more expensive, surely look like they are more realistic maybe and with finer detail.

I personally really enjoy test of honour, it's a very easy ruleset without being overly simplistic. it does require a deck of cards which might be offputting if you prefer games without clutter.

I also like test of honour !

Glad to hear this! Is it enough with the basic rules and cards, or are there any expansions considered mandatory?

[sonicReducer]

I have a fair sized Japanese collection, mostly Perry. Steel Fist miniatures also have a nice selection.

For skirmish you could also look at Donnybrook and Seven Spears, which is a fan mod of Dux Britanniarum

[Wellington]

I prefer Perry and Test of Hounour minis. The Test of Honour might lack details, but are very nice to paint.

Test of Honour is the more deadlier, fast playing und fun version of Mortal Gods. Due to the crits for the different weapons sometimes crazy thing like in certain Samurai movies happens. And its usable for larger skirmishes too.

[Palmoin]

Thank you all for the answers. I see ToH has some fans over here, but...

Taking a deeper look at Footsore minis... I realized they are even more expensive than Kensei ones. Is it possible ot play properly with just the cards coming in this pack: https://footsoreminiatures.co.uk/products/test-of-honour-gaming-set?

Even taking advantage of the Black Friday deals, adding the gaming set, Warring Clans deal and Seven Ronin, I would end up with a 184€ cart, containing 30 ashigaru (3 of which are casualties), 13 samurais and 7 ronin, with 50 minis in total.

Meanwhile, buying from the Kensei range, if I use the 30% discount they are going to apply for Black Friday, I would get Buke, Kuge and Sohei starter boxes and the rule book. This would be 30 yari ashigaru, 15 samurais, 10 monks, 5 slingers, 5 ninjas, 5 onna bushis, 5 teppo tais, 3 bannermen and 9 heroes. This would be 87 minis.

With Perry Miniatures, a sorted selection of troops will be 165€ for 90 minis, 12 of which would be mounted samurais. This range would include ashigaru (yari, teppo and yumi), samurai (yari and katana), monks, ninjas and mounted samurais.

Both ranges of minis look really nice, so maybe I combine them to add variety of poses and weapons.

Either going for Kensei+ Perry (for cheaper cavalry) or full Perry, I could only play with the basic cards from ToH, because I wouldn't have those that come in expansion boxes.

I'm planing on getting sooner or later the 3 rulebooks, since Ronin seems to be unanimously praised, with ToH getting some love too and Kensei not being quite played, but looking interesting. I could easily play Ronin and Kensei with the minis mentioned (I guess this will work as well fo SAGA, Argad and Seven Spears), but I don't know if I would be missing some cards to play ToH properly.

Thanks again for the answers.

[OSHIROmodels]

Bit of a plug but if you’re after terrain there’s a good selection here 

https://oshiromodels.wixsite.com/oshiromodelswebshop/japanese28mm

[Veteran Sergeant]

Kensei miniatures look great, but they are on the taller end, and are expensive.

Warlord plastics are the most cost effective way to go, but the molds are a little soft, and the samurai are very small and skinny, which might not be wholly unrealistic for Sengoku Japan, but less exciting looking on the tabletop.

Overall, Perry has the best looking figures, and the price is decent.

Footsore minis are decent, but the scale inconsistent across the range. The ashigaru will tower over Perry or Warlord ashigaru.

Old Clan Wars figs can be found on Ebay, and while they are characterful, they're heroic scale and will have bigger heads and hands than the other ranges, as well as bigger weapons.


Perry Metal, Warlord Plastic, Clan War Metal, Zenit Metal



Perry Metal, Footsore Metal, Warlord Plastic

[Palmoin]

Many thanks! Those Warlord minis, even being smaller than the rest, look better than I thought. Might go with them and Perry. BTW, the Zenit miniature looks... weird?

[Wellington]

I used the Warlords plastic Ashigaru, because they came with the Test of Honour 1. Edition game box and they are usable, but no fun to paint. The Warlord plastic Samurai are horrible miniatures and I still try to get rid of them.

The guys with the red Sashimos are Warlord: https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=128254.0;attach=136651;image

I use the Warlords if I have to bring larger numbers of Ashigaru, but if possible I hide them and use my Perry and Test of Honour Ashigaru.

If you go for cheap miniatures and you are have no other priorities, then use the Warlord plastic, but other wise stick to the other brand .. with the exception of the metal Warlord miniature!

These are very nice too! I just rembered that I have some of the bandits and they quite good!