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Author Topic: English Longbow Myth busted....  (Read 8862 times)

Offline gregmita

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2021, 08:53:05 PM »
Atheling, thank you for the bibliography. It's always good to add to the to-read pile.
There were many periods in the war... the result in each period was significant about weapons and tactic, the final result was perhaps not, depending on other factors too.
(...and I'm a Breton, our Duke arrived one day too late at Agincourt, on purpose, he probably told the French king he had an excuse from his mum or whatever)  lol
I'm thinking of something like the Loire Valley Campaign, which was basically the beginning of the end. To me, that epitomized the French side finally "getting it" on strategy and tactics. They actually used their strengths to their advantage.
Let me just add that the French also used longbows in large quantities in the latter half of the 15th century, as did the Burgundians...
Yes, that's the "various mercenaries" part of what I wrote. Duke Charles the Bold of course was well known for actual English longbows within his ordonnance companies. However, like you said, there seems to be no record of any significant contribution they had to any of the battles. That's especially interesting in wars against the Swiss, which you'd think they would be very well suited, especially with a regular place in Duke Charles' organization. The Burgundian army kept getting surprised and out-maneuvred in the Swiss wars though, so another data point about their proper use.

Offline Atheling

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2021, 06:07:18 AM »
Atheling, thank you for the bibliography. It's always good to add to the to-read pile.

Not a problem at all. All the books are well worth a read and all have their own merits as well as angles when looking at the Warbow.

Duke Charles the Bold of course was well known for actual English longbows within his ordonnance companies. However, like you said, there seems to be no record of any significant contribution they had to any of the battles. That's especially interesting in wars against the Swiss, which you'd think they would be very well suited, especially with a regular place in Duke Charles' organization. The Burgundian army kept getting surprised and out-maneuvred in the Swiss wars though, so another data point about their proper use.

I think if you just take the figures for one of the Ordonnance:

"CIharles's army, finally, contained a Ducal Household of over 2,000 men, which eventually consisted of, firstly, eight 50-lance companies of men-at-arms, four being of the bodyguard, four of the Court; secondly, their corresponding archers, all English, about 800 strong; thirdly, eight 100-man companies of Household infantry (half ordinary, half extraordinary); and fourthly, a company of 40 Gentlemen of the Chamber, guarding the Duke's standard.

As might be expected in this early period, figures for the overall strength of the Burgundian army are rather conflicting, but shortly before the disastrous defeat of Morat, 1476, his army consisted of: 1,741 men-at-arms (including 500 of the Household); 4,062 mounted archers (including 1,377 English; probably also mounted crossbowmen); and 4,445 infantry: 10,248 total. However, Burgundian feudal levies and Savoyards would bring this up to something between 12 and 15,000 altogether.

In addition to horse and foot, Charles brought into the field a great quantity of artilleryCharles's army, finally, contained a Ducal Household of over 2,000 men, which eventually consisted of, firstly, eight 50-lance companies of men-at-arms, four being of the bodyguard, four of the Court; secondly, their corresponding archers, all English, about 800 strong; thirdly, eight 100-man companies of Household infantry (half ordinary, half extraordinary); and fourthly, a company of 40 Gentlemen of the Chamber, guarding the Duke's standard.

As might be expected in this early period, figures for the overall strength of the Burgundian army are rather conflicting, but shortly before the disastrous defeat of Morat, 1476, his army consisted of: 1,741 men-at-arms (including 500 of the Household); 4,062 mounted archers (including 1,377 English; probably also mounted crossbowmen); and 4,445 infantry: 10,248 total. However, Burgundian feudal levies and Savoyards would bring this up to something between 12 and 15,000 altogether.

In addition to horse and foot, Charles brought into the field a great quantity of artillery.", Gush


It is clear that a great deal of experimentation is going on. I could be wrong but I think the disparate nature of his army veered away from the essential esprit de corps achieved from hiring from professional localised retinues loyal to certain captains, indentured together, that kept "English" armies cohesive and that more then anything lead to his defeats (and yes, I'm including his mediocre strategist and tactician here!).

I once had a long conversation with Alex Buchel of Saga fame, at Warhammer World at one of the WAB Weekend Campaigns, who had just written the HYW supplement for WAB (sadly never to be published as GW folded very shortly afterwards) and we must have spent at least an hour making just that point. The absolute essential "ingredient"  n "English" armies were the extraordinary esprit de corps combined with the training since youth of not just the nobility but the Yeomanry. These two factors being consequential in the success of said "English" armies. Of course, such armies were not always successful. Leadership and luck always come into play.

Offline gregmita

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2021, 09:45:33 PM »
I think you are definitely correct on the cohesion thing. The Burgundian Ordonnance may look like the wargamer's dream, with a combined arms army that contained all the best troop types of the time, but if they couldn't work together, the different arms are a liability, especially combined with poor leadership.

Offline Patrice

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2021, 10:27:06 AM »
The absolute essential "ingredient"  n "English" armies were the extraordinary esprit de corps combined with the training since youth of not just the nobility but the Yeomanry. These two factors being consequential in the success of said "English" armies.

Yes I entirely agree.

English troops in foreign armies (Burgundian, but also Breton in 1488, etc.) would have lacked this esprit de corps, and the foreign commanders probably did not use them properly.
And longbows used by foreign archers (others than English or Welsh) lacked the necessary training which explains they were not so effective.

Offline Atheling

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2021, 12:34:34 PM »
Yes I entirely agree.

English troops in foreign armies (Burgundian, but also Breton in 1488, etc.) would have lacked this esprit de corps, and the foreign commanders probably did not use them properly.
And longbows used by foreign archers (others than English or Welsh) lacked the necessary training which explains they were not so effective.

I am certainly with you on that one Patrice :)

Online Cubs

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2021, 04:01:08 PM »
I thought I'd let the hornet's nest settle down a little before giving it another kick. Always more fun that way.

I think the esprit de corps angle is a good one, often overlooked. Funny how vital morale is for a soldier and how it's often seen as an afterthought or a lesser ingredient by us gamers. I see it as the most vital component of any army. After all, the whole purpose of war is to destroy the enemy's capacity or will to fight and you can often achieve that just by sticking around longer than they do.

on the physical side of things  the way I've always seen it, from what I've read and my own (very limited) experience of using a bow, is that the bow itself is half of the equation, the archer is what makes the other half. A crossbow will deliver the same power whether fired by a veteran or a rookie, which is why they were so popular. The longbow (great bow, English/Welsh/Scots bow, whatever, we know what we're talking about) was powered by the man firing, and because the cultural landscape in Britain and the Isles included bigger, thicker bows, then the longbowman tended to be bigger and stronger through using them, something that contemporary commentators made note of (no doubt linked to morale again - it's easy to be confident if you're stronger than the other guy and opposite is also true). I have heard that one reason for this was the popularity of deer hunting (and poaching) which used a large and powerful bow, whereas on the continent bows were mostly used for birds and rabbits, but I don't know how much truth is in that.

Yup, you could get a big bow in continental Europe, powered by a big man, firing big arrows. You could also get a small bow in Britain, powered by a small man, firing small arrows. But we're dealing with cultural norms that generated longbow experts from a good percentage of the population, who had literally grown their bodies around the weapons and were no doubt capable of feats of accuracy, strength, speed and endurance that we normal humans fathom and that a less experienced soldier could not attain. Look at any professional gymnast or athlete today to see what heights of performance the human body can reach with years of application.

But, if you use it wrong, it's not gonna work. Poor tactics or bad luck will always lead somewhere bad, no matter how good your troops. Plus, you're not always going to get the cream of the crop. Sometimes a commander will have to pad out the numbers with less well trained bowmen - smaller bows perhaps? Or perhaps big bows, but with men not able to fire them with the same accuracy, power or speed?

So how good was the longbow? Potentially devastating if you make the bow and the man big and experienced enough. But it was one weapon, one tool in the box and not a magic wand that could take the place of good generalship. I do feel that it was a unique weapon - the man and the bow - in terms of the sheer power it could generate, the rate of fire, the accuracy of delivery, the size and craftsmanship of the arrows themselves that peaked by the mid 15th century, at a time just before (the best) armour managed to catch up with it and go beyond the bow's capability to cause such problems. It was still a very useful weapon of course for a long time after that, but a combination of technical and tactical advances gradually pushed it into obscurity.
'Sir John ejaculated explosively, sitting up in his chair.' ... 'The Black Gang'.

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Offline Johnp4000

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2021, 09:24:51 AM »
When you look at army lists, English longbowmen seemed to have hired out their services to several other foreign armies, obviously in smaller numbers but does anyone know of any non HYW battle accounts where there are any details to see whether their contribution was effective or otherwise?

Offline Atheling

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2021, 11:39:15 AM »
Off the top of my head, specifically English Archers, the booklet is a great place to start....

The Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold, Pat McGill, Armand Pacou & Rod E. Riddell

Available from the Lance and Longbow Society here:
https://lanceandlongbow.com/shop.php

There were others. Montlhery 1465 is a very good example. Get googling :) There's a great book on the battle in French available on amazon here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/bataille-Montlh%C3%A9ry-16-juillet-1465/dp/2912994128]https://www.amazon.co.uk/bataille-Montlh%C3%A9ry-16-juillet-1465/dp/2912994128]https://www.amazon.co.uk/bataille-Montlh%C3%A9ry-16-juillet-1465/dp/2912994128

Offline Johnp4000

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2021, 05:02:15 PM »
Off the top of my head, specifically English Archers, the booklet is a great place to start....

The Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold, Pat McGill, Armand Pacou & Rod E. Riddell

Available from the Lance and Longbow Society here:
https://lanceandlongbow.com/shop.php

There were others. Montlhery 1465 is a very good example. Get googling :) There's a great book on the battle in French available on amazon here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/bataille-Montlh%C3%A9ry-16-juillet-1465/dp/2912994128]https://www.amazon.co.uk/bataille-Montlh%C3%A9ry-16-juillet-1465/dp/2912994128]https://www.amazon.co.uk/bataille-Montlh%C3%A9ry-16-juillet-1465/dp/2912994128


Thanks, Atherling,I know they also served in Portugal and Italy where I assumed they would have been faced down by lots of crossbowmen? Have you read any details of these theatres?

Offline Atheling

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2021, 06:36:45 PM »
Anything good military history of Hawkwood would be a good place to start in Italy.


Offline Patrice

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2021, 08:12:50 PM »
A few hundreds from the Isle of Wight were on the Breton side at St-Aubin-du-Cormier 1488.

I don't think we know much of what they did - they fought bravely; we know that they were there, and also that many Breton archers were given a red cross too (instead of a black one as worn by all Breton troops) it was believed it would impress the French. But in fact, wearing a red cross meant slaughter for those who were caught in the ensuing rout.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 08:17:11 PM by Patrice »

Offline WuZhuiQiu

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2021, 12:54:45 AM »
I thought I'd let the hornet's nest settle down a little before giving it another kick. Always more fun that way.

...

on the physical side of things  the way I've always seen it, from what I've read and my own (very limited) experience of using a bow, is that the bow itself is half of the equation, the archer is what makes the other half. A crossbow will deliver the same power whether fired by a veteran or a rookie, which is why they were so popular. The longbow (great bow, English/Welsh/Scots bow, whatever, we know what we're talking about) was powered by the man firing, and because the cultural landscape in Britain and the Isles included bigger, thicker bows, then the longbowman tended to be bigger and stronger through using them, something that contemporary commentators made note of (no doubt linked to morale again - it's easy to be confident if you're stronger than the other guy and opposite is also true). I have heard that one reason for this was the popularity of deer hunting (and poaching) which used a large and powerful bow, whereas on the continent bows were mostly used for birds and rabbits, but I don't know how much truth is in that.

Yup, you could get a big bow in continental Europe, powered by a big man, firing big arrows. You could also get a small bow in Britain, powered by a small man, firing small arrows. But we're dealing with cultural norms that generated longbow experts from a good percentage of the population, who had literally grown their bodies around the weapons and were no doubt capable of feats of accuracy, strength, speed and endurance that we normal humans fathom and that a less experienced soldier could not attain. Look at any professional gymnast or athlete today to see what heights of performance the human body can reach with years of application.

...


Also, more experience in training and usage would likely have translated into the ability to use longbows having greater draw weights, and to draw (and release) them more often before becoming tired.

Offline Atheling

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2021, 06:51:29 AM »
Also, more experience in training and usage would likely have translated into the ability to use longbows having greater draw weights, and to draw (and release) them more often before becoming tired.

Yes, strength and stamina would be essential.

It is important to note that, as I have said in s previous post, the same goes for most Medieval weapons to some degree. This is often overlooked.

Offline Patrice

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2021, 08:08:32 AM »
Yes, strength and stamina would be essential.

It is important to note that, as I have said in s previous post, the same goes for most Medieval weapons to some degree. This is often overlooked.

Yes, certainly.  ::) I'm working to resolve the fact that the rules I use for Dark Ages spear-armed cavarly cannot work exactly the same for Napoleonic lancers...  :?  lol

Online Cubs

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Re: English Longbow Myth busted....
« Reply #59 on: May 08, 2021, 08:59:10 AM »
Also, more experience in training and usage would likely have translated into the ability to use longbows having greater draw weights, and to draw (and release) them more often before becoming tired.

Yup, 100%.

 

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