RCW - scenario 1918 - Bolsheviks vs Germans - please Help

[former user]

Hi

I am planning for a RCW scenario set in 1918 Ukraine (figure availability)
Germans vs Bolsheviks
and would need some advice/Ideas/historical setting

from You RCW pros who would like to push me in the right direction

suggestions?

[Mark Plant]

Technically Germany didn't fight the Bolsheviks in the Ukraine in 1918. The Ukrainians got in first at Brest-Litovsk and made a separate peace. The Bolsheviks didn't have the troops on the ground to object, and Ukraine was occupied pretty much unopposed. Where the Bolsheviks did fight, it was against Whites and Ukrainian nationalists, not Germans. It was this vacuum, of forces fighting for more revolutionary aims, that Makhno (and others) stepped into.

The Reds did fight the Germans along the northern borders for a bit before the Treaty of B-L was signed, though it was all one-sided, as the Germans were massively more powerful.

For early Reds versus Germans, the best battles (because more even, with both sides committed) come with the first Soviet occupation of Latvia in late 1918/early 1919. The Red Latvians were a formed army, and the Germans were still basically ex-army rather than the Freikorps they turned into.

A similar situation did occur in the Ukraine, with advancing Soviet forces meeting retreating (or stuck) German ones. For this the Reds need to be not much more than partisan forces (which, in fact, many of them had recently been). Actual German-Bolshevik fighting was pretty limited, if only because on the whole the German rankers (not officers) were pretty sympathetic to the Bolsheviks, although the possibility of more existed. The only halfway decent book in English is Bolsheviks in the Ukraine : the Second Campaign : 1918-1919 by Arthur E Adams.

The politics of the Ukraine in 1918 is massively confusing. Is there some reason why it has to be there and not Latvia?

[former user]

Thanks Mark

well, in the first place, we don't have latvian or estonian models
and we would like to get started

we have only some bolsheviks, a lot of germans, few models in tsarist uniform, some armoured cars and an armoured train
so I thought Ukraine 1918 would be best we can get

I read the basics, and yes, the Latvian campaign sounded very interesting
now I read about the Germans driving Bolsheviks out of Kiev vice versa, so I thought this might be useful
it is intended to be a rather skirmish battle
I will try to check out the book
but some link to abattle might be useful - if you know

[Mark Plant]

I wasn't aware the Bolsheviks fought the Germans in Kiev in 1918. It must have been pretty minor, even by the standards of the time.

But you don't need Latvians or Estonians for the first part of 1918 in Latvia. There was only the German army, which morphed into the Freikorps. Their very small allied Latvian contingent fought in Tsarist uniform anyway. This is ideal for small scale infantry games, in suitably broken country.

Another alternative with what you have is fighting on the NorthWest Front in 1919 -- basically Iudenich's attacks on Petrograd. Prince Lieven's Whites fought in German uniform (and the rest of that White army basically fought in Tsartist uniform). That makes the armoured car and train more realistic too.

[former user]

well, I read in my comprehensive " history of Ukraine" by a german professor for eastern european history (don't have the reference here, but I can include it if desired), that after the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, the Germans drove the Bolsheviks out of Kiev
Could also be about that the start of RCW is seen differently by some people

sometimes I read - revolt of the Czech Legion 1918 and asassination of the Tsar and Family
(but this is certainly soviet propaganda related)
I personally would go with October/November 1917, since the "october revolution" was in fact a "coup d'etat" against the Duma
never mind

would you have some link for a battle in Latvia?
or Yudenich's 1919 campaign?  but they surely would not wear german uniform with pickelhaube or coal scuttle??

[Mark Plant]

Oh, the Germans drove the Bolsheviks out of Kiev alright. No doubt about that. The Reds had recently seized it from the Ukrainian nationalists. It was the amount of fighting involved that is outside my ken.

On Latvia, all the detailed material I have is in German or Latvian, neither of which I read (there are maps and pictures I have used for later periods). I do have a couple of some short general histories in English - I'm happy to send those.

They did wear coal-scuttles in Iudenich's army. The only thing marking them as Russian were the shoulder-boards (and I doubt they all wore those in the field, especially in with the coloured side up).

I was going to say that I knew of no decent history of Iudenich's campaign in English, but I looked in my files just in case. There's an old thesis someone scanned that I can send. There is also a solid orbat.
http://pygmy-wars.50megs.com/technical/orbats/iudenicharmy.html

Also the small Baltic German command in the Estonian army wore German uniforms (and without the Russian shoulderboards too).

(The difficulty of finding any hard information on this stuff is what drove me into assembling what I could at Pygmy Wars. It is infuriating that it is so fragmentary.)

[Poliorketes]

Another alternative with what you have is fighting on the NorthWest Front in 1919 -- basically Iudenich's attacks on Petrograd. Prince Lieven's Whites fought in German uniform (and the rest of that White army basically fought in Tsartist uniform). That makes the armoured car and train more realistic too.

If you want to use armor, the Leningrad Front is the right place. In Ukrainia 1918 armor is a bit out of place.

[former user]

we are talking about one armored locomotrice and several armoured cars here, not blitzkrieg

any suggestion for a historical scenario?

[Poliorketes]

I know, but even ACs have been rare in WW1 and RCW.

[former user]

yes, western thearer, eastern theatre and palestine seems different

osprey mentions quite a lot - although compared to the vastness, it is not like WWII

armoured cars were used in detachments of 3-4
and these detachments were massed for important operations by the reds
so 1-2 detachments would not be anything special, especially for cities
there are many pictures of that

we should also not forget that the entente dumped a lot of their AC and tanks first to the reds and later even more to the whites, as they were war surplus
and there was a lot of capturing going on

I read Osprey's "armour of the RCW" both parts on that

[Mark Plant]

The issue was never really finding armoured cars. It was supplying them and keeping them going. In the early days the Bolsheviks had no supply system, but lived off the ground. That didn't work for armour.

Even later, although a divizion might have four armoured cars in the orbat, that doesn't mean they had four actually running at any one time. Keeping them going, especially when they are in action, was a major issue. You very rarely see reports of actions involving more than a couple of armoured cars in one spot.

Trains is a little different. In 1918 the war was largely fought from and around them. Indeed it is sometimes called the "railway war" period. But these were not the big armoured behemoths of a later time. Instead they were ordinary trains with a field gun or two slapped on them and a few MGs in/on a carriage. Perhaps some improvised armour (I've seen references to railway sleepers and to cotton bales!) if they had time.

So yes, the Red in the Ukraine in 1918 should have trains, but not ones that can take on any serious artillery opposition (such as the Germans would muster).

[former user]

yes, OK

though I read that starting with 1918, the bolsheviks began to build armoured trains of their own

however we want to get started with RCW and have to bend a little bit

not having a lot of Bolshevik models (some 30), we have to bolster them up with what is at hand, and this involves 4 armoured cars and a railway gun wagon
otherwise it would be a very small scenario
anyway, the armour is surely more authentical on the bolshevik than on the german/ukrainian side

well, if noone has some link or battle name I can research, it will be driving out the bolsheviks from Kiev with numerical superiority and the bolsheviks covering up their retreat by railway through armour

@ Mark Plant, I've sent You my email address since You offered some material

[area23]

But the Maknovist army instead included a lot of red and white deserters at times, if I remember well.
So the bolshevik models could be used as a generic revolutionary partisan army/platoon.
Some desperate undermanned and undersupplied battles and many raids as I understand, but enough to base a game on.

And the makhnovists did fight either germans or austro-hungarians, I don't remember exactly.
Adding some partisans and cavalry models you'll have a great generic revolutionary platoon, useful from Kiev to Riga.

[former user]

yes, true

but the bolsheviks are tagged red
we can't use them for makhnovists
and half of them are sailors

nono the forces are set, we have these two settings as a choice
afterwards no german uniforms any more
but I think I got a lot from mark plant now about Yudenich, so I have tocheck the material first