Dauphiné Savoyard War c.1282-1355

[Mark]

Hi all,

Currently visiting my wife's family in France and having visited the local chateaux (again) have been reinspired to get my planned project for this conflict off the ground.

I think it will work nicely for lion rampant with lots of sieges and chevauchee type action, but am wondering where to look for miniatures. There is a lot available for up to the 1200s and after 1400, but my Google fu is failing me for options for the first half of the 1300s - all suggestions gratefully received!

Also, if anyone is aware of anything on the conflict in English, or even websites that Google will translate for me those would also be gratefully received. My French isn't awful, but translation makes my head hurt!

[Atheling]

1282-1355 is a long time period and armours and indeed fashions changed considerably during said period.

Can you narrow it down to a decade or two?

It could be a lot easier to point you in the right direction miniatures wise.

[Mark]

Call it 1320s... the "big" battle of Varey was in 1325 and one of the sieges of the castle of St Germain, visible from my in-laws was 1321.

It is for this reason I ask the question... I am very bad at noticing changes in fashion (today as well as historically!) - I know the difference between mail and plate, and note different types of helm but outside of that am pretty hopeless!

[Maniac]

Try Claymore Castings for some 14th Century types (1300s).

https://claymorecastings.co.uk/new.claymorecastings.co.uk/

[Atheling]

Try Claymore Castings for some 14th Century types (1300s).

https://claymorecastings.co.uk/new.claymorecastings.co.uk/

Claymore, in particular the men at arms are more 1342 onwards (starting with the Battle of Morlaix) than 1320.

For 1320 you are much better serves by the Antediluvian Miniatures range (if you miss out the highland types):


I'm hoping that Andrew from Antediluvian Miniatures  does more heavily armed men at arms types in the near future.

Of course, if you're not too particular, then mini's from both ranges could be used.

[Mark]

Thanks for the suggestions - I had seen both and was hoping there might be fuller ranges somewhere. Despite my inability to "spot the difference" I had come to the same conclusion as atheling on claymore - especially the mounted knights which antediluvian do not have.

I had looked at mirliton too who seem to be in the right sort of ballpark - any comments on those?

[Atheling]

Thanks for the suggestions - I had seen both and was hoping there might be fuller ranges somewhere. Despite my inability to "spot the difference" I had come to the same conclusion as atheling on claymore - especially the mounted knights which antediluvian do not have.

The Claymore knights are much more 1346-1356, Crecy and Poitiers respectively than 1320. They would do at a pinch but their armours would definitely be more advanced then that of 1320. I just want to be clear when I am making a recommendation

I had looked at mirliton too who seem to be in the right sort of ballpark - any comments on those?

It's been such a long time since I have looked at the Mirliton site but I'm sure they have mini's more suitable for the 1320's but they will be limited in numbers.

[bluewillow]

Claymore, some Anteluvian, both fit well together. Black tree have a good range the horses are a little large and fit with the Crusader miniatures range. First Corps and old glory also and fit together well being smaller.

I have a mix of all of the four ranges but slowly replacing with claymore and Anteluvian

Cheers
Matt

[Mark]

Thanks again for the suggestions. As I suspected it is a period not particularly well catered for.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding after a bit of googling is that this period of knightly armour was the very beginning of the transition of mail to plate - mostly around the joints (roundels, pauldrons etc) and parts of the limbs (greaves, vambraces etc). This being the case, I was wondering if using Fireforge Western Knights and either green stuffing bits of plate or chopping up bits of perry plate armour to attach might work?

Also considering the Fireforge foot sergeants as providing a chunk of the great unwashed. Comparing to the antediluvian infantry I can't see any glaring inaccuracies but again glad to hear of any issues.

I have ordered what appears to be a kind of "French Osprey" on the battle of varey but not sure when it will arrive... want to keep my motivation up in the meantime!

[Atheling]

Thanks again for the suggestions. As I suspected it is a period not particularly well catered for.

That's what I have been alluding to above.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding after a bit of googling is that this period of knightly armour was the very beginning of the transition of mail to plate - mostly around the joints (roundels, pauldrons etc) and parts of the limbs (greaves, vambraces etc). This being the case, I was wondering if using Fireforge Western Knights and either green stuffing bits of plate or chopping up bits of perry plate armour to attach might work?

Fireforge Western Knights are about 50 years too early, but they have been successfully kit bashed- please do a search for the amazing work of Captain Blood Fireforge Knights  to see what is possible. You will have to do a lot of conversion work.

Sorry to say, I haven't got very much time to write a more detailed post this morning except to say that I would consider buying a book on the history of armour in Western Europe and dig in . It's a very nuanced subject, for example, in the time period you are looking at, a degree of Cuir bouilli (hardened boiled leather) would have been used in lieu of metals plates being available/affordable etc

[Maniac]

Late 1200s into early 1300s, the Firforge certainly can work.  You can gs some pauldrons/vambraces/greaves and get a proper look if you want.

These are reasonable approximations of figures for right about 1300:




Look for images from the Codex Manesse.  The following are some paper soldiers that are direct lifts from it:
https://minilabmodels.wordpress.com/tag/codex-manesse/page/2/
Then the codex itself:
https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848?&ui_lang=eng

  This is particularly apt for 1300ish as it was written in 1304.  A little earlier than 1320, but within the overall time line you are looking for.  Avoid the half/proto great helms and aim for full great helms or sugar loaf helms.  Thus the Teutonic kit may be better than the Western Knight kit.  Shave off the horns/wings, and you are getting closer.  Remember that not everyone would have all of the latest and greatest, and you'd have a mix with earlier full body chain, some cuir bouilli, or partial plate pauldrons/greaves/etc.

1st Corps does have head sprues that could be used (again the Teutonics 2, Kettle Helms, or the late 13th century) for right at the turn and partially into 1300s.

https://1stcorps.co.uk/product-category/medieval/early-medieval-crusades/medieval-europe-western-europe/medieval-europe-western-europe-western-europe-medieval-head-sprues/

[Mark]

Thanks Maniac - never seen the Codex Manesse before, what a treasure trove!

For those who have no idea about the war I'm going on about, I thought I would share the below photos. They are from a printout kindly given to me when we visited the new experimental archeology site of Montcornelles, where the intent is to build an entire fortified town over the next 40 years - a supercharged Guédelon! Even in these early stages I would massively recommend a visit - no rush though! 

https://www.montcornelles.fr/

[Mark]

Well, it took a month (good old French levels of service!) But my book on the Battle of Varey arrived this week. It is, as I hoped, Osprey esque in its layout. Lots of heraldry to have a go at and some nice illustrations... now I just need to bite the bullet and buy some figures!