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Author Topic: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please  (Read 381 times)

Offline Zozimus

  • Student
  • Posts: 19
I'm gradually making way with my French and Irish units (3 French and 5 Irish, plus 1 Prussian in progress). However I now find myself in a bit of confusion with regard to the flags as follows:

1. I have the 1706 regiments of Clare, Galmoy, Lee, Dorrington and Berwick done. Once the Prussians are finished, I'll probably start on FitzGerald's. From what I've found out in the interweb FitzGerald's drapeau d'ordonnance was similar to Lee's but with a different device in the cantons, namely a crown with a cypher (Lee only a crown) and the latin motto ' Pro Deo Rege et Patria' replacing the 'In Hoc Signo...' one.

2. When I come to the early Dillon's flag all I can find is that it was the same as FitzGerald's (Dillon had green facings at this time). There must have been some differences between them, maybe even the motto, but I can't find one.

3. I know there's little info about Burke's regiment uniform facings, but I've found an illustration of a flag in the Galerie de Royalfig website (Planches Gilles Boue) which shows a red 'St George's' cross on a yellow field and a red lion statant guardant in the 1st and 4th cantons and  the red hand of O'Neill in the 2nd and 3rd (motto: Nihil De Est Sperantibus in Deo). This seems to me to be a flag which might have been used in the war in Ireland.

Can anyone confirm anything I'm not sure of or guide me in a better direction.

Thanks in advance  :)


Offline Arthur

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2153
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2021, 01:03:59 AM »
From what I've found out in the interweb FitzGerald's drapeau d'ordonnance was similar to Lee's but with a different device in the cantons, namely a crown with a cypher (Lee only a crown) and the latin motto ' Pro Deo Rege et Patria' replacing the 'In Hoc Signo...' one.

Sources differ on the Fitzgerald drapeau d'ordonnance. Pierre Charrié's seminal Drapeaux et étendards du roi gives four identical pale green cantons with three red wavy lines and and a white cross with no motto or devices in it. Still according to Charrié, the colour you describe was not adopted until 1708, when Fitzgerald's regiment became Daniel O'Donnell's (occasionally bastardised as Dodonel in contemporary French documents). Robert Hall, using the Du Vivier manuscript as his source, ascribes the O'Donnell colour to the earlier Fitzgerald regiment (though Du Vivier simultaneously lists the green flag with red wavy lines for Fitzgerald, thus contradicting himself). On the whole, I'd go with Charrié and only use the colour with red and green cantons for O'Donnell's but Hall may possibly be right as well - the primary sources aren't crystal clear on the matter.   

2. When I come to the early Dillon's flag all I can find is that it was the same as FitzGerald's (Dillon had green facings at this time). There must have been some differences between them, maybe even the motto, but I can't find one.
This one is a bit easier. You are correct in saying that Dillon had green facings during the WSS (the black facings usually associated with the regiment were not introduced until 1735). Dillon's drapeau d'ordonnance was actually similar to Lee's, not Fitzgerald's (this is confirmed by the Du Vivier manuscript from 1715) : crimson cross with a white border and gold letters and devices. Red (1 & 4) and green (2 & 3) cantons, with a golden crown lined red in each canton. The green in Dillon's flags was darker then the hue seen on the Fitzgerald/O'Donnell's colours which was a paler grey-green shade known as vert céladon.   

3. I know there's little info about Burke's regiment uniform facings, but I've found an illustration of a flag in the Galerie de Royalfig website (Planches Gilles Boue) which shows a red 'St George's' cross on a yellow field and a red lion statant guardant in the 1st and 4th cantons and  the red hand of O'Neill in the 2nd and 3rd (motto: Nihil De Est Sperantibus in Deo). This seems to me to be a flag which might have been used in the war in Ireland.

That flag description comes from the Du Vivier manuscript and is correct for the 1699-1715 period when Burke (sometimes bastardised as Bourck) was the regiment's colonel. According to Pierre Charrié, this drapeau d'ordonnance was also used between 1693 and 1699 when the regiment was Henry Luttrell's. Facing colour unknown as you say : red or yellow facings have been suggested, but they are highly speculative and not supported by primary sources. Blue has also been mentioned but would rather be restricted to the Foot Guards, which became Dorington's regiment once the remnants of the Irish army were taken into French service.   
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 01:10:12 AM by Arthur »

Offline Zozimus

  • Student
  • Posts: 19
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2021, 03:37:20 PM »
Thank you so very much and sorry for the delay in acknowledging your help. I realise there are many sources that I don't know about and I appreciate your sharing the information. I do find this a fascinating subject, possibly more so than the uniforms.

I look forward to having these flags made up and trying to paint the figures to do them justice.

With many thanks once again

Michael M

Offline Zozimus

  • Student
  • Posts: 19
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2021, 07:28:14 PM »
Apologies for this late addition.

The lack if information on Burke/Bourke is frustrating; I had thought the facings could be either green or yellow, but hadn't thought about red. The regiment would have been the only Irish one with that colour. I suppose that, based on the colours in the drapeau d'ordonnance, red or green could have been possible; the vert céladon would have been more striking than a plainer green.

I forgot to ask about the drapeaux colonels - would they have been white on white with any canton devices repeated from the drapeau d'ordonnance?

Thank you again

Michael M

Offline Zozimus

  • Student
  • Posts: 19
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2021, 11:48:07 PM »
Further embarrassed apologies - I was confusing Burkes facings with Fitzgerald's flag and it has taken a while to sink in.

Offline Arthur

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2153
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2021, 06:45:44 AM »
The reason why Burke's facings have sometimes been tentatively given as red is that Luttrell's regiment - which was made up of the remnants of several Irish regiments from James II's army - is known to have had red facings in the 1690's. There is absolutely no evidence however that facings continued to be red after Burke took over as regimental commander and their colour may very well have changed in 1699..

Re the colonel's flags, they were as follows according to the Du Vivier manuscript :

- Fitzgerald : white cross on a white background with identical devices and motto ("Pro deo rege et patria")   to the drapeau d'ordonnance. The version with the red wavy lines was presumably a plain white flag without devices.

- Dillon : ditto, white cross and white cantons with the same devices and motto as the drapeau d'ordonnance

- Burke : unknown. The drapeau d'ordonnance appears to be the only one to have been recorded.


Offline Redshank

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 32
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2021, 08:37:07 AM »
Not my period and I am no expert, but this rang a bell as I had the good fortune to visit Kylemore Abbey in the west of Ireland a few years ago and remember seeing what they claim is an Irish Brigade battle standard from WSS there.

Provenance of their flag is however unclear.

Info in case useful:

https://thewildgeese.irish/profiles/blogs/the-mysterious-provenance-of-kylemore-s-battle-flag

Offline Zozimus

  • Student
  • Posts: 19
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2021, 03:42:04 PM »
Thanks for all the replies - they are really helpful. As I've said, this is a very interesting subject and it shows that the internet resources aren't the only ones that matter. There must be a few gems still buried in the French archives.

Offline Chad

  • Schoolboy
  • Posts: 9
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2021, 07:00:15 PM »
Check out Maverick Models Flags for Irish WSS Units

Offline Zozimus

  • Student
  • Posts: 19
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2021, 07:08:32 PM »
I have several of his flags including the Burke's Regiment one he did for me. A good service, as is Flags of War

Offline Arthur

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2153
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2021, 11:01:10 PM »
Not my period and I am no expert, but this rang a bell as I had the good fortune to visit Kylemore Abbey in the west of Ireland a few years ago and remember seeing what they claim is an Irish Brigade battle standard from WSS there.

Provenance of their flag is however unclear.

Info in case useful:

https://thewildgeese.irish/profiles/blogs/the-mysterious-provenance-of-kylemore-s-battle-flag

The Kylemore flag is most likely a fragment from a captured English colour rather than the remnants of an Irish one, as the article's comments section makes it clear. 

Offline Redshank

  • Assistant
  • Posts: 32
Re: Irish Brigade flags in the War of Spanish Succession - some advice please
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2021, 12:27:13 AM »
The Kylemore flag is most likely a fragment from a captured English colour rather than the remnants of an Irish one, as the article's comments section makes it clear.

Thanks for this, I should have read right through!

 

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