Russian Civil War infantry tactics

[former user]

thank You

well, it is supposed to be an inspiration, right?

and awesome looking game! looks like fun

I tried some 30YW lately, but it is a little retro in comparison
anyway, we better discuss these tactics somewhere else   

[Ignatieff]

I tried some 30YW lately, but it is a little retro in comparison

What??? As a thirty year wargamer of both (as opposes to a TYW gamer), I can assure you that the variety of tactics, armies & battles is way more varied in the TYW than the ECW. Dig deeper and I promise you you will fall in love with the TYW. 

[former user]

first please tell me the difference - TYW and 30YW

and with retro I meant the more cumbersome spanish tactics of huge and combined units, not that it would be boring or anything
or do I misundertsand something?

[Poliorketes]

first please tell me the difference - TYW and 30YW

and with retro I meant the more cumbersome spanish tactics of huge and combined units, not that it would be boring or anything
or do I misundertsand something?

I guess he's been gaming both for 30 years

[Ignatieff]

Yup, that's right.  Spanish Tercio's stopped being big and lumbering fairly early on (late 1620's), and after Brietenfeld, were the same depth as the Swedes (6).  You've also got fantastic Polish armies of horsemen and axe wielding musketeers, armoured cuirassiers (not many of them around in the ECW), Croats (my favourite looters) and every nationality under the sun.  The two books by Guthrie on TYW battles will inspire you to the heights, I promise!

Anyway, we best stop talking about this on here before we are moved somewhere else!!!

S

[former user]

we could open up a thread in "swashbuckling" - we are going to play a scenatio at Tactica 2010


so, since the tactics and formations of late Renaissance can hardly be translated to RCW, what remains is the strategic approach with skirmishing, looting, marching and countermarching

I thought of using the campaign system we developed for 30YW in RCW indeed
so we are here not at the level of infantry tactics, I'm afraid

I must say I am surprised of the lack of submachineguns, which would be very useful for Brussilov tactics.
I understand there is no account, even as fancy sidearm for elite etc, but I would attribute this to the ammunition problem
though I really do not know
let's see
Vilar Perrosa - 9mm Glisanti
1918 Beretta - 9mm Glisanti
MP 18 Bergmann - 9x19 mm Parabellum
Chauchat-Ribeyrolles 1918 - 8mm Lebel
Thompson - .45 ACP  (but probably hardly available)

italian and german ammo are almost the same - I guess German subs would have been available, but

Nagant revolver - 7.62x38mmR
Walther P08 - 9mm Parabellum
Webley - .455 Webley
Colt new service - several large calibres
Modèle 1892 - 8mm Lebel
Mauser C96 -    7.63x25mm Mauser, 9 mm Parabellum

so obviously, no available Russian ammo for any submachinegun, unless imported
the fact comes up that Germany sold C96 to Bolsheviks in large numbers, and my guess would be that ammo production would have been easily adaptable (and obviously has been done, since the later Tokarev fires the same cartridge)
I guess we can take the broomhandle as some kind of submachinegun then....

[Funghy-Fipps]

I must say I am surprised of the lack of submachineguns, which would be very useful for Brussilov tactics.
I understand there is no account, even as fancy sidearm for elite etc, but I would attribute this to the ammunition problem
though I really do not know
let's see
Vilar Perrosa - 9mm Glisanti
1918 Beretta - 9mm Glisanti
MP 18 Bergmann - 9x19 mm Parabellum
Chauchat-Ribeyrolles 1918 - 8mm Lebel
Thompson - .45 ACP  (but probably hardly available)

You are forgetting the Fedorov Avtomat, which was converted to take Japanese 6.5x50SR Arisaka ammo, which the Imperial Army apparently had in abundance (and which would have remained relatively plentiful throughout the civil war years).  Mind you only 3,000 or so had been manufactured by 1924 so they can hardly have been abundant.  Still, would be nice to see some minis wielding these early assault rifles...   I know that Musketeer are due to release some 'shock troopers' for their WW1 Russian range so I've got my fingers crossed!

[former user]

Indeed

never knew of that one, thank You for the info

it says however only 500 were produced by 1919, when production was increased
but You are right, this weapon should have been in use with shock troops, so where are the miniatures?   

[Poliorketes]

I guess we can take the broomhandle as some kind of submachinegun then....

Definetly not. The C96 was not able to fire in full automatic mode until the early thirties. It's a common feature of Hollywoode movies to see it fired in SMG-rates, but that's just the movies. The Artillery-P08 is another subject, but this was a german army weapon not exported.

With the other SMG models - they should not be used in RCW. The MP18 was a rare item in the german imperial army (around 10.000 produced) and other models have been even rarer.

[Plynkes]

Poliorketes is absolutely right. The Schnellfeuer is a product of the 1930s, made for export to China. Everybody gets that wrong, as the idea of the Broomie being a Machine Pistol has somehow been burned on to our collective consciousness (by movies, TV, and in the UK probably war comics, too).

[former user]

I know the C96 of that time fired single shots

but it had a large mag, far range and accuracy.
I meant  "kind of", as opposed to pistol and rifle
I know the ones shown in movies are the later ones with full auto and removable mag. (Plynkes was quicker here )

I don't know if submachineguns were used in RCW or not, I merely " collected " the available ones and spent some thought on ammo, to have a potential idea if they could have been used.

the article on the fedorov avtomat says these were used in RCW, although only 500 had been produced by 1919
so of the 10 000 MP 18, some could have found their way to the east....

I wouldn't mind seeing some subs in a RCW game anyway
though of course not as unit weapons

[Funghy-Fipps]

the article on the fedorov avtomat says these were used in RCW, although only 500 had been produced by 1919

Sure, but then it goes on to state that from 1919 onwards production was increased so one presumes that by the final years of the war there could have been a few floating around in *ahem* elite Red units.  The city of their manufacture, Kovrov, is situated about 150 miles east of Moscow and was never taken by the Whites (they got 'close'; Kazan was only 300 miles away!) so aside from the odd capture it would have been a predominately Red weapon.

[former user]

sure, that makes total sense
however, it is as far as one gets with educated guess

and if there is no evidence for use of SMG, there will always be the hardline that doesn't want to see them in RCW, and the soft line (like me) who doesn't care if it would have been possible 

[Ignatieff]

sure, that makes total sense
however, it is as far as one gets with educated guess

and if there is no evidence for use of SMG, there will always be the hardline that doesn't want to see them in RCW, and the soft line (like me) who doesn't care if it would have been possible 

follow your heart mate.

[former user]

of course - this is what anyone should do and is fully entitled to

to stick to being as historically accurate as possible is also a good approach, thus I did not intend any criticism by "hardline"