Ninefingers Age of Arthur (10/08 Goths/Pict)

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

Were cataphracts in Britain?

[Atheling]

Were cataphracts in Britain?

Maybe at one time, say under the Army of Constantine (latterly "The Great"), but not in the Sub Roman era.

This info is based on the very sound knowledge of Professor Guy Halsall in his advisory roll when we were playtesting the Age of Arthur WAB supplement so it pretty damn solid.

[Ninefingers]

Were cataphracts in Britain?

In the words of Ridley Scott, "were you there?" 

Fanciful stuff maybe, but it's my army and I don't count buttons 

[Atheling]

In the words of Ridley Scott, "were you there?" 

No, nor where you. But perhaps the point is someone, in this case Aethelflaeda asked a question and I answered it to my best of my ability. The answer was not aimed at you; nor was it a critique of your army. Just to be clear, it was simply a direct answer to a direct question.

Fanciful stuff maybe, but it's my army and I don't count buttons 

There's no reason at all to start being insulting. To infer that someone who cares about history, who you do not know, is a button counter for answering a question posed by another member is an insult. The forum does have rules.

This is LAF where members are free to enjoy the forum but not at the expence of others; this is not The Miniatures Page!

[WorkShy]

I think you can get away with cataphracts in post Roman Britain. Not many but nobody has any scientific evidence one way or another.

We do know from the Notitia Dignitatum that the Comes Britanniarum has a unit, Equites catafractarii iuniores, drawn from the overall command of the Magister Equitum. That unit was probably, in itself, drawn (or was) the same as that listed under the command of the Praefectus equitum catafractariorum, at Morbio, under the list for the Dux Britanniarum. When the Notitia Dignitatum was last updated is debatable but probably very late 4th century. So cataphracts were known in Britain. Whether they were the armoured horse variety is also debatable or just armoured riders.

Could a warlord have afforded to have some cataphracts as part of his warband? A small number yes. Many very unlikely. They may not, however, have made much tactical sense. They do not transport well. They are most useful in large pitched battles, with supporting light cavalry (horse archers) and infantry. Not hugely relevant for post-Roman British military conditions where skirmish and siege may have been more relevant.

[WorkShy]

double post

[Kikuchiyo]

Fab looking army, I'm still tempted to try something similar using pendrakens 10mm range

[Ninefingers]

I think you can get away with cataphracts in post Roman Britain. Not many but nobody has any scientific evidence one way or another.

We do know from the Notitia Dignitatum that the Comes Britanniarum has a unit, Equites catafractarii iuniores, drawn from the overall command of the Magister Equitum. That unit was probably, in itself, drawn (or was) the same as that listed under the command of the Praefectus equitum catafractariorum, at Morbio, under the list for the Dux Britanniarum. When the Notitia Dignitatum was last updated is debatable but probably very late 4th century. So cataphracts were known in Britain. Whether they were the armoured horse variety is also debatable or just armoured riders.

Could a warlord have afforded to have some cataphracts as part of his warband? A small number yes. Many very unlikely. They may not, however, have made much tactical sense. They do not transport well. They are most useful in large pitched battles, with supporting light cavalry (horse archers) and infantry. Not hugely relevant for post-Roman British military conditions where skirmish and siege may have been more relevant.

Interesting to see that there were some around, although they were a lot rarer in the Western Empire (or what was left of it) compared to the East. In the end, it's three figures on a base because if memory serves you can have a single unit of them in the Late Roman list in Dux Bellorum.

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

In the words of Ridley Scott, "were you there?" 

Fanciful stuff maybe, but it's my army and I don't count buttons 

I wasn’t being critical, more curious about the historical record.  When we see Romano Britons, it’s not uncommon to see 16th century tournament armour being used alongside bare-chested tattooed 1st Century Celts led by 13th century garbed priestesses in chariots, and we still enjoy it.  I think it’s time to go find Excalibur for another viewing! now just where can i find some African swallows…

[Ninefingers]

I wasn’t being critical, more curious about the historical record.  When we see Romano Britons, it’s not uncommon to see 16th century tournament armour being used alongside bare-chested tattooed 1st Century Celts led by 13th century garbed priestesses in chariots, and we still enjoy it.  I think it’s time to go find Excalibur for another viewing! now just where can i find some African swallows…

That's why my inspiration is more from Bernard Cornwell's Arthurian trilogy. It may be an imagined narrative of the late 5th century, but it certainly feels 'in period'.

[WorkShy]

In the WAB Age of Arthur supplement, the Romano-British are allowed 1 elite unit (Commanipulares) which can be mounted with thrusting spears. As the authors say this "reflects the possibility that some soldiers were well trained in heavy cavalry tactics, similar to (but less effective than) those employed by the kontos-wielding cataphracts of the Eastern Empire". Moreover, you can use character advantages Finest Armour (to give heavy armour), Professional (giving drilled) and Knight Commander (+1 rank bonus). Gets you fairly close in game stat terms to the barded late Roman cataphracts of in the Fall of the West supplement.

So I admit that when playing WAB AoA, I've used barded horses to represent the commanipulares unit. When Victrix launch their Late Roman cataphracts a few might accidentally find there way into my Romano-British roster. Whether that's historical or not is impossible to ascertain. They look nice though!

[nikephorous]

Lion Rampant, Dux Bellorum, and Midgard

I think what was meant was - What is the frontage of each base... 

[ulverston]

I live near Ribchester up in Lancashire and the museum on the site of the old Roman fort is full of interesting finds. Certainly the cavalry that were based there seem like heavy cavalry and would probably pass for Cataphracts.... if you google the Ribchester helmet you can see that the cavalry there must have been almost Cataphract like.

[Ninefingers]

I've started on the Early Saxons to oppose them. First up are commanders and champions, then six bases of heavy infantry and four bases of skirmishers. These can be used for Lion Rampant or Dux Bellorum. Figures are Gripping Beast and Footsore, with a few West Wind.

[Ragnar]

Brilliant project, Ninefingers!