Anybody Using Fistful Of Lead for Squad Level WW2???

[Dubar]

I've been using the Fistful of Lead Reloaded 2nd Edition for Wild West gaming and recently bought the Core rules to try them for WW2.  Anybody else using them for WW2?

They're very good overall and work well, but I feel something is missing.  I think it's got to do with the rate of fire for the more modern weapons, primarily semi-auto rifle/SMG, and LMG/HMG weapons.

In my homemade rules, most semi-autos/SMGs get to roll twice per turn and LMGs/HMGs get to roll three times due to their rate of fire.  I might add this into the FfOL Core Rules and see what happens.

What do ya'll think or what have you done as far as improving on the original set of rules?

[CapnJim]

We've not used Fistful of Lead for WW2.  We have used them for 1920s/1930s era US gangster and WV Coal Mine wars stuff (complete with SMGs).  We have used Fistful of Lead: Bigger Battles for WW2, though...

Remember, figures can fire twice in a turn (using both actions).  And, SMGs/LMGs use the Burst rule in the Core rules.  You can fire at multiple targets if they are within the 3" template centered on the original target figure (albeit at -1 for each figure).  You could also give semi-autos the same rule, too.  But, after doing some testing on the range with my brother, with an M1, an M1903, an Enfield No. IV Mk. 1, and a Mauser K98, there isn't an appreciable difference in rate of fire for aimed fire in the defense.  However, there is a marked difference in rate of rife with aimed fire with the M1 on the move.  Personally, I wouldn't use the Burst rule for semi-autos, but that's just me...

[Dubar]

LOL...Thanks for reminding because I completely forgot!!!

I don't think I'd use the Burst rule for semi-autos either.

I do have a M1, but the Carbine in .30cal, also have a 1903 Springfield, Lee-Enfield Mk3 and a Yugo M48 Mauser.  I've never tried to compare fire rates but I would still give the M1 Carbine the edge as far as rate of fire, simply because you're only moving your finger as opposed to having to cycle the bolt with your hand.  Could be my old, tired bones.

Never fired a full-auto but a friend of mine who's on the police force has fired one of their Thompson SMGs.  He's a big boy and he said when he first fired it he sprayed the target area, nobody told him the barrel would torque off target as much as it did!  Once he figured it out he did fine.  Burst rule for sure on those LOL!

I'll figure something out to make it "feel" right.  If it doesn't work, no harm.

[vodkafan]

Dubar how do you actually make the difference? One dice for single shot, 2 dice for semi auto and 3 dice for full auto?
And just add up the totals?

[Dubar]

Last night I tried it out.

For a bolt-action rifle or pistol (revolver or semi-auto) 1 die as the rules say

For semi-auto rifles (including assault rifles) 2 dice

For LMG/HMG (MG-34, MG-42, BAR, BREN, etc) 3 dice

First I picked a figure with a BAR on a bipod, 3 D12 dice, needed a 5 to hit.  I rolled the dice and counted each as a separate hit, split them if you have multiple targets and using BURST fire.  I was shooting at just 1 target and rolled 1,1,7!!!  Being I rolled a 1, the BAR was out of ammo (or a malfunction is how I like to look at it) and the 7 just didn't count. I tell ya I'm cursed with rolling 1s!!!

Next I picked a figure with a Thompson SMG, 2 D10 dice, shooting at 1 target with BURST fire.  Needed an 8 to hit, rolled two 4s, missed.

My last try was with a MG-42 on a bipod, 3 D12 dice needing a 5 at 1 target again using BURST fire.  Rolled 2, 7, and 8 for 2 hits.  The hits were rolled for a result of 2 Shaken markers on 1 target.

For the heck of it I rolled 2 and 3 dice just to see what the results would be.  Out of about 10 rolls I had only 1 where all 3 dice would have been hits, most were 2 hits.

So far I think the results are acceptable, semi-autos just put more lead down range and IMO increase your chances of hitting what you're shooting at.  I'm going to keep using it for a while to see if it turns the game into a lopsided battle or not.  I can see the U.S. side having a slight edge with the M1 Garand getting 2 dice, but the Germans relied on the MG-34 and 42 as their main squad weapon, with 3 dice.  That may level the field.

Using concealment and cover is essential in modern warfare, don't get caught out in the open.  I also concentrated a few Germans using the K-98 on a single target.  If the cards and rolls come out in their favor they can negate the effects of semi-auto and full auto weapons.

I'll keep tweaking this until I'm satisfied or find it doesn't work.

[CapnJim]

Sounds interesting - and logical. 

First I picked a figure with a BAR on a bipod, 3 D12 dice, needed a 5 to hit.  I rolled the dice and counted each as a separate hit, split them if you have multiple targets and using BURST fire.  I was shooting at just 1 target and rolled 1,1,7!!!  Being I rolled a 1, the BAR was out of ammo (or a malfunction is how I like to look at it) and the 7 just didn't count. I tell ya I'm cursed with rolling 1s!!!

We count the hit(s). And then declare the "Out of ammo"....(yeah, we also think of it as jams, etc. too, not just empty magazines.)

I may have to try your idea - Are you capping the number of Burst shots to the number of dice each type of weapon can fire (i.e., semi-auto rifle 2d)?

[Dubar]

Are you capping the number of Burst shots to the number of dice each type of weapon can fire (i.e., semi-auto rifle 2d)?

I'm using the whole roll as a single burst, whether it's 2 dice or 3 dice.  I have enough dice so it's easy for me to pick 2 or 3 D8/10/12 and roll them as a single burst.

I had even thought of giving a MG-42 on a tripod 4 dice but I think I'll play with what I've come up with for now.

Just don't forget (like I do) to give a -1 for Burst fire.  I usually use burst fire anyway on weapons that can do it and I really ought to modify the character cards to allow for all the Mods that each character gets instead of having to remember them or look at the rule sheets.

I did decide to use Burst fire for Assault Rifles, SMGs, LMGs, MMGs, and HMGs.  Being there's only a handful.  My lists so far includes:
PPSH-41/43
STG-44
FG-42
Thompson SMG
Sten
M1919 tripod MMG
M2 Browning HMG
BAR
MG-34 (bipod LMG, tripod HMG)
MG-42 (bipod LMG, tripod HMG)

I'm sure there's more but that's my figures carry.

So far this is the only area of the rules I feel needs tweaking for WW2.  I need to use grenades more to see if there's something that could use tweaking as well.  Is there somewhere that shows stats on how many times grenades hit their mark and how often they were used?  If it was me I'd be tossing them at everything!

Hope that answered you question!

[fred]

Interesting discussion - not got to modern(ish) combat with FFoL yet.

One thought I have had is that for MGs that they could be treated as less effective at very short ranges - so 6” or less - counts as a difficult target. As it feels traversing a heavy MG on to a close fast moving target is much harder than doing so with a pistol or an SMG. Gives the short range weapons a bit more of a purpose - as otherwise if the long range weapons have longer reach, and are just as good at short-range why bother with anything else?

[CapnJim]

That does answer my questions.  Thanks.  If you have Bren-armed figures, I'd add them to the list, as well.

I will point out that the newest version of the rules (Galactic Heroes) modifies the "Out of Ammo" results for Burst fire.  How many die you roll is the numbers that dictate an Out of Ammo result.  For example, If you do a 3-die burst, the figure is Out of Ammo with more 1s, 2s, and 3s than hits.  I will say that we tend to stay with just 1s for that for belt-fed MGs, given their greater supply of ammo vs. box-fed guns like the SMGs, ARs, BARs or Brens. 

As for grenades, we use these rules as written, as such:

1.  Mark aim point.
2.  In a line from the thrower to the aim point, the grenade goes 1d10+3 from the thrower.  A natural "1" drops at the thrower's feet (oops...).
3.  Center the 3" template on the landing point.
4.  If smoke, it creates a 3" diameter smoke cloud.  It dissipates per the rules.
5.  If HE, everyone under the template rolls on the wound chart.
6.  Using common sense, we modify the landing point if it would hit a wall, etc.

This seems to work well.  And, unless it's important to a given scenario, we don't worry too much about the number of grenades each figure carries.  They probably ain't gonna throw grenades every action, anyway...

Interesting discussion - not got to modern(ish) combat with FFoL yet.

One thought I have had is that for MGs that they could be treated as less effective at very short ranges - so 6” or less - counts as a difficult target. As it feels traversing a heavy MG on to a close fast moving target is much harder than doing so with a pistol or an SMG. Gives the short range weapons a bit more of a purpose - as otherwise if the long range weapons have longer reach, and are just as good at short-range why bother with anything else?

We try to use historical(ish) TO&Es, so most figs will have a rifle, SMG, or pistol.  Even in Fistful of Lead: Bigger Battles, most platoon-sized elements will only have a few MGs out of 30 - 40 men. 

 

[Dubar]

Good idea Fred about the MGs at shorter range.

CapnJim...I forgot about the Brens, I do have a couple.

I ran a small skirmish this morning...I can't stop rolling 1s!!! 

I was down to 6 Germans and 3 G.I.s and 50% of them had run out of ammo in a single turn.

The grenade rules you posted are what I'm using, but hadn't taken into account for bouncing off a wall yet.