Rules for Border Reivers?

[SJWi]

Following a discussion last night with one of my gaming chums, I've decided to dig out my 16th century Border Reivers figures and try the period again after a gap of maybe 15 years. From memory one of the reasons our interest waned was because we couldn't find a decent set of rules. Does anyone have any suggestions?

I'm aware that Flags of War have recently released a set plus figures, but am unclear if you have to use their figures as they come with the requisite cards needed to play.  Having 70+ Vendel and Foundry figures I don't really want or need to buy more figures .Any view on this set of rules particularly welcome.

Thanks,   

[Atheling]

If you're talking skirmish then there were the rules in WI (sorry I don't remember the editions but it was before is became a thicker mag).

If large scale battle then someone put on a game at Partizan which looked splendid and they might be able to help you out?

Partizan Game:

[SJWi]

Atheling, thanks. Let's see if your post jogs any memories. I guess I'm after "big skirmish " with 30-40 figures per side. I certainly don't want a handful of figure almost roleplaying game. Likewise I don't want to paint another 60+ figures for "small battles" .

 Would "Pikemen's Lament" work or is too focussed on formed units?

[fred]

Units in PL are pretty small 8 or 12 figures - I can’t recall which, and you don’t have many units in a force.

I’d suggest Irregular Wars as an option - whilst notionally a 15mm rule set, it is all based on base widths for measurement, and would work well with 40 or 50mm square bases for 28mm figures. Around 15-20 bases per side. It gives a great game, and the rules cover so many theatres you are always thinking what force could you make by just buying a few more figures!

[Atheling]

Atheling, thanks. Let's see if your post jogs any memories. I guess I'm after "big skirmish " with 30-40 figures per side. I certainly don't want a handful of figure almost roleplaying game. Likewise I don't want to paint another 60+ figures for "small battles" .

I'm afraid not- it had a quirky name and over time a forgettable one apparently  I'm pretty sure someone will come along who has more efficient grey matter then I- but then again the rules were skirmish level.

Would "Pikemen's Lament" work or is too focussed on formed units?

Pikemen's Lament seems to have been adapted for many periods of time within the "Pike and Shotte" era so I certainly don't see why not. Maybe someone has already given it a try???

Incidentally, according to my records, the club who put the game in at The Other Partizan was by our very own Roger C et al; a WIP of the game can be seen on his fab blog here:
https://gapagnw.blogspot.com/2023/10/another-elizabethan-irish-play-test.html

[Cat]

In the 30—40 figure range, Donnybrook would work quite well.

[Inkpaduta]

If you look at the free wargames site they have actually rules for Border Rievers.
You could also check on TMP under Border Rievers and they would likely have another
rules sets specific for BR. I know I have seen them and check on a few of the rule sets.

[Capt. Fortier]

I think the WI rules were "The Bloody Borders" - from mid-2005. You could also try some free rules: "Hot Trod & Red Hand" (https://miniaturewargaming.com/blog/hot-trod-and-red-hand-border-reivers-rules/)  and "Invictus Maneo" from Colonel Bills (https://www.colonelbills-store.co.uk/store/Invictus-Maneo-Skirmish-Rules-for-the-Later-Border-Reivers-Period-c133196830)

[SJWi]

Chaps, thanks for the recommendations.  I actually found "Hot Trod and Red Hand" in my old rules stash, and have located another set called "With Hakebutt and Dagge" by Dan Mersey which sound quite interesting. I'll also look at the Colonel Bill's set. I saw them last night when I was checking out some of his Reiver figures which I plan to buy to complete my force.

I bought a sealed copy "Irregular Wars" on a whim last year planning to use them for Conquistadors vs Aztecs as I had heard good things about them. However I  was initially put off by what seemed like a high figure count. Maybe I'll also re-look at them.

I'm still intrigued by the shiny new Flags of War rulebook but won't be investing if I can't answer my query about them.

Regards     

[RedRowan]

The Border Wars rules from Flags of War suggest between 5 to 20 miniatures per player depending on how big a game you want to play. Not played it myself but it very much seems like a skirmish game with miniatures being activated individually and then performing a number of actions.

Although the miniatures do come with profile cards the rules include a section on generating your own characters and there are blank profile cards you can download on the website. Each character starts with a base profile and is then upgraded depending on their rank, ie Soldier, Hero or Leader before purchasing equipment.

You would need to purchase a Game deck alongside the rules though as the game uses cards for things like events, abilities and hero actions.

Hope that's of use.

Steve

[Rogerc]

My two penneth here.

I actually had a bunch of Borderers and couldn't find rules that worked for me too, so expanded to Elizabethan Ireland for larger engagements.

Flags of War is aimed at relatively small scale, a family of 5 or 6 per player. You don't need to buy their figures, but they are lovely.

Irregular wars I have played quite a lot recently, not a high figure count as such maybe 40-50 figures a side would be fine, but aimed at small battles rather than large skirmishes each base of figures being a company.

Donnybrook as suggested may be a good fit, Pikemans lament also, although I dont like them myself, also consider the Sharp Practice offshoot Sharply Buffed.

Best of luck, look forward to hearing the results.

[SJWi]

Roger thanks. I've heard rumours of a Sharp Practice ECW variant but nothing more. Do you know any more about it? I hear about lots of variants for Sharp Practice and now What a Cowboy but nothing ever appears.

I'll give some of the old, free sets a go. I have two of them and will look at those produced by Colonel Bill. Interesting that they mostly date from about twenty years ago when I think the Vendel figures were released. It seems the rules followed the range of figures, and then the genre died off.

My next challenge is to source some decent period terrain. Various Bastle houses out there, just got to decide which to opt for.   

[traveller]

I have a few different projects for the 16-17th century skirmishes in the pipeline. I was considering Pikemans Lament but I want the miniatures to fight as individuals rather than units. I will therefore try to use Osprey En Garde. The shooting is rather simple and quick but I maybe have to simplify the melee rules to speed up the game. Otherwise the rules gives you the possibility to personalize different characters in an interesting way.

[SJWi]

Traveller, thanks for the reminder about "En Garde". I must admit I usually steer clear of the Osprey Blue books as I've had more "misses" than "hits", albeit I do like the "Honours of War" Seven Years War set. However reading some reviews of En Garde I may just buy them. As well as Border Reivers I have a large collection of Redoubt's 3 Musketeers range which date from a similar period in my gaming life, and similarly sit languishing in deep store. I have the old "All for One" rules and scenario book which Redoubt used to sell, but I never really got into them.  More recently I've been waiting for Two Fat Lardies to release their set "Flashing Blades" which I played at a Lard event back in the Summer  of 2022, but they seem to have disappeared off the radar for now.

I'm off to the Warfare show on Saturday so will look out for En Garde.

Regards.   

[traveller]

The En Garde book is usually sold for a rather low price, around £10. While the book includes a number of nice illustrations, the rules are not very well structured. I spent the weekend summarizing them into 3 ppt slides, which made it much easier to understand and play. I will be happy to share them if you like. One thing I like with the rulebook is the possibility to tailor your characters with a number of attributes which affect combat. I use that for the characters while the rank and file are left plain. I have not tried as many as 30 miniatures per side but for 15 per side the game rund quite smooth. Especially if there is more shooting than melee. Here is a little testgame for the "Three Musketeers":