British Force for Anglo-Egyptian Sudan (Mahdi force numbers listed)

[FifteensAway]

Feel free to link to other threads that may have already covered this topic - though I didn't find one (well, yet).

I am considering building a basic British force for gaming the earlier period of the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan.  No plans to "rescue Gordon" or anything like that.  More along the lines of what will mostly be fictional field battles (historical battles too well known to have fun games with built in surprises for the players).

I figure a few British regiments, a couple of highlanders, some Marines and naval forces, mounted troops including on camels (ahistorical perhaps?), artillery and machine gun, some sort of train.  To help with variety, Egyptian and Sudanese and some Indian troops probably be included.
 
For the opponents I will certainly use the traditional 'recycle' them back into the battle so as to paint fewer troops - though I will paint more Sudanese than British and allies.  Anzar and fuzzies, cavalry and camelry. 

There will be river boats and dhows in the mix just because I have them.

Unit sizes may be 18 per or maybe 12 per but definitely multi-figure bases in 15 mm.

So, a list for a small but colorful British force, please?

Thanks!

[Plynkes]

The 1884-1885 campaigns that involved the British were almost entirely about rescuing Gordon. The 1885 Suakin expedition however occurred after the fall of Khartoum. There were only two battles as I recall. Neither are particularly well-known so you could probably game them.

The objective of the force was to defeat Osman Digna's Beja and build a railway westwards from the Red Sea coast to the Nile, as a preparatory step to defeating the Madhi. But the whole thing got called off after a while, and sadly for your boats they never got anywhere near the Nile. Perhaps yours will.

Here's a basic list of the forces involved:

Cavalry
5th Lancers
19th Hussars
20th Hussars
9th Bengal Cavalry

Infantry
3rd Batt, Grenadier Guards
1st Batt Coldstream Guards
1st Batt Berkshire Regt.
1st Batt King's Shropshire Light Infantry
2nd Batt East Surrey Regt.
Royal Marine Light Infantry
15th Bengal Native Infantry
17th Bengal Native Infantry
28th Bombay Native Infantry
New South Wales Infantry Battalion

Artillery
G Battery B Brigade, Royal Horse Artillery
5 Battery 1 Brigade, Scottish Division
6 Battery, 1 Brigade, Scottish Division
Royal Marines Artillery
New South Wales Artillery Battery

Engineers
10th Railway Company RE
17th Field Company RE
24th Field Company RE
F Company, Queen's Own Madras Sappers and Miners

The entire force wore khaki uniforms, though a couple of the British Battalions may have started the campaign in the grey uniform manufactured in Egypt worn by the Gordon relief expedition.

Their opponents were Osman Digna's Beja, the famous 'Fuzzy Wuzzies.' At this point most reports seem to suggest they had shaved their heads and adopted the Ansar uniform. It was a transitional phase though, so you could probably get away with using a mixture of 'Fuzzy Wuzzies' and other types of Ansar troops.

Hope that helps a bit. Something historical you can build your fictional plans around.



Edited for about half a million typos.

[FifteensAway]

Thanks, Plynkes, very helpful. 

I also found the Perry uniform listing which will also be useful: https://www.perry-miniatures.com/the-sudan-1883-85-a-brief-history-and-uniform-guide/

One thing I like about the Perry list is it shows some units still wearing red at times.  While the switch to khaki might have been in full swing, I am one of those gamers who want to see the British in red coats - at least some of them.  I like the thought of red, blue, and green uniforms in evidence on the table even if a bit ahistorical.  Not so sure about those grey uniforms but I guess I can paint a few like that, maybe more of a blue-gray though.  The more tan and yellow khaki are easier for me.

I might push back as far as 1882 perhaps (Egypt) but will depend on further research.

History is grand and I love reading all sorts of history but I've found actual history too well known to present the best gaming experience thus the fictional campaign.  Not to say I don't try to recreate historical battles at times, I'm just finding plausible but fictional battles more fun.

[Plynkes]

Historically the scarlet uniforms weren't used very much. When gunboats were sent ahead to Khartoum the troops on board were told to wear scarlet, under the odd notion that seeing British redcoats might intimidate the Ansar. That's the only time they were worn during this part of the war historically, and they weren't worn in any battles. Of course, in your version things might have played out differently.

Towards the end of 1885 the Ansar tried to invade Egypt, and they were repulsed at the battle of Ginnis by an Anglo-Egyptian force in which the British troops did wear scarlet. This is often cited as the last time the British Army wore red coats in action.


The army that fought in the Egyptian campaign were also kitted out in the traditional red uniform, if you do decide to go in that direction.


Oh I forgot, the previous Suakin campaign of 1884 included a couple of Highland regiments. Just mentioning that as you expressed an interest in fielding Highlanders. While this campaign was part of the general war aim of relieving Khartoum, the expedition itself wasn't directly involved in that goal. So it requires only the tiniest leap of imagination to include Highland regiments in your non-Khartoum-relieving endeavours and still be able to consider it fairly historical.

[Deedles]

Thanks, Plynkes, very helpful. 

I also found the Perry uniform listing which will also be useful: https://www.perry-miniatures.com/the-sudan-1883-85-a-brief-history-and-uniform-guide/

One thing I like about the Perry list is it shows some units still wearing red at times.  While the switch to khaki might have been in full swing, I am one of those gamers who want to see the British in red coats - at least some of them.  I like the thought of red, blue, and green uniforms in evidence on the table even if a bit ahistorical.  Not so sure about those grey uniforms but I guess I can paint a few like that, maybe more of a blue-gray though.  The more tan and yellow khaki are easier for me.

I might push back as far as 1882 perhaps (Egypt) but will depend on further research.

History is grand and I love reading all sorts of history but I've found actual history too well known to present the best gaming experience thus the fictional campaign.  Not to say I don't try to recreate historical battles at times, I'm just finding plausible but fictional battles more fun.

Great stuff - don’t tie yourself up too much in historical knots I say . I like the Sudan period for its ability to field various types of forces . You can indeed do colourful with the imperial forces  , with the blue , red , khaki , naval uniform. Have fun!

[FifteensAway]

Thanks, Deedles.  And you are only mildly partly to blame with your extraordinary (possibly slightly insane?!  ) collection for the Sudan - just spectacular, sir. 

I have trains but more Old West than proper for the Sudan.  If anyone knows of suitable locomotive and cars in 15 mm for the Sudan, please let me know.  Skip the TT scale recommends, too rare here in USA and far too expensive.

Okay, Deedles really isn't to blame since I've had lots of figures for the conflict for ages, just making it one of my "greatly reduce numbers" periods to make it more workable.  Closing in on finishing my French Foreign Legion which also got this treatment of reduction.  Probably the best decision I've made over the years, the reduction - instead of my own "insane" over building collections of figures for various periods.  There is only so much time to paint - and play.

[Will Bailie]

For red coats, you could go just a year or two earlier and work on Tel El Kebir and the British conquest of Egypt. 
https://www.britishbattles.com/war-in-egypt-and-sudan/battle-of-tel-el-kebir/

[Jack Jones]

I think that the Suakin expeditions offer plenty of opportunities for inventing scenarios, for example around the construction of the Suakin–Berber railway.

There was also the possibility of a relief expedition from this direction.

And you get Fuzzy Wuzzies with big hair!

I have a 1884/85 hybrid field force, since I wanted to capture the range of Empire troops deployed. I have yet to add Indian infantry, mounted infantry, Egyptians, irregulars and so-on.

More on my blog.

Cheers
JJ

[FifteensAway]

It has taken a while - a variety of distractions in the interim, not all hobby related, some quite important - but today I sat down and got back to the reduction process.  And I think one of the important points is to 'build a collection' for four players total with the option of 'gently' boosting for six players at times. 

While I have no plans to add any figures, I am curious as to a decent mix of units for one player to control, say two players for the British side and two for the Mahdist side?  And once I have that, I will adjust it to the figures I have.  For those willing to put out lists, remember the goal is a 'much smaller' collection!

One of the absurdities I see in what I have is I could easily build five four unit brigades of allied troops to the British, whether from Egypt, Sudan, or India - including Gurkha which I don't think actually fought in the theater.  Not all bad, I could build a decent Egyptian army as an alternate opponent to the British.  Just need to really downsize. 

And on that front, I am debating about making units six stands of 12 total figures rather than six stands of 18 total figures - that cuts out a third of what needs to be painted.  My rules of choice, Rank and File, require three hits to take out a stand - but it is still possible to record three hits against a two figure stand.  Only challenge is I'd need to order a lot more 1/2" x 1" stands than I have on hand.

Of course, there are still distractions, including a couple of hobby ones, that are in play.  But progress is progress.

When all done, I'm going to make someone happy with a whole bunch of 15 mm figures for the theater.  If I sell what is left, it will be for a really great price for the buyer.  Or, if I find someone I consider truly worthy, I might just gift them to that individual.

That's all for now. 

[bc99]

At the battle of Ginnis the British wore red, apparently for the last time (or one of the last times) in battle. So you truly could have a little bit of everything. I’m also interested in seeing what minis people suggest.

[FifteensAway]

Don't need suggestions on minis - have more than enough already - just trying to come up with how to organize a collection to support a total, both sides included, for four to six players.  But for 15 mm figures (or 18 mm if you prefer) hard to go wrong with Old Glory's Blue Moon range.  For 28 mm, need to ask others.

Thinking each player gets 3 (4?) foot units, 1 (2 ??) mounted units, and a MG or Gun, plus a leader figure.  And probably a 'reserve' for the CinC figure.  So, that is 9-12 foot units 3-6 mounted units, 3 or so heavy weapons, and some command figures.   9 * 12 = 108 figures, 12 * 18 =216 figures for foot depending on which way I go.  That would be for the British. 

The Mahdist don't need to be more or larger units - though probably the latter.  Give the Mahdi side 'greater numbers' by creative use of casualty figures essentially allowing controlling player to pull a sufficiently damaged unit from the fray - marking location with a cead figure - and replace with a full strength unit coming on to the table, pretty much makes each figure count as two for natives. 

Even the 216 figures is a pretty easy lift for me, relatively - painting to basic game table standard.  Can knock that out in a month or so - did over 200 last month for AWI and Robin Hood. 

For cavalry units of 12 figures including dismounts and counting the beasts, that is a maximum of 216 as well, so maybe another month.  That is one side only, of course.  So say three months to paint British side and four months to paint Mahdist side and keeping the over all total under 1,200 figures all in.

The quandary, however, is to decide just what units to paint within those constraints and still have a versatile force for each side.  And there is that complication, if I go down that path, of adding an Egyptian all arms army as an alternative opponent.

[FifteensAway]

Took some time today to sort out the English figures - less allies - and here is what I've settled on:

Mounted Troops (all with dismounts):
Life Guards - 12
Dragoons - 12
Hussars - 12
Lancers - 12
Mounted Infantry - 12
Camel Corps A - 12
Camel Corps B - 12

Foot Troops:
Royal Regiment - 18
English Regiment - 18
Irish Regiment - 18
'Extra' Regiment - 18
Highlanders - 24
Highlanders - 24
Royal Post Office -18 (just 'cause)
Marine Light Infantry - 18
Navy in Straw Hat - 18
Navy in Cap - 18

Artillery (some with naval crews, others to paint as Marines):
Guns with 4 crew - 3
Camel guns with 4 crew - 2
Gatling guns with 4 crew - 3
Limbers - 2, Wagons - 1, Pack Camels - 6

Plus various generals, camel and horse holders, a band, and dead figures.

Maybe not historical but gives plenty of variety and should be more than enough to have fun games.   And that knocks a LOT of figures out of the painting queue! 

Next probably do the Mahdi forces - though perhaps there should be a better term to refer to them once the Mahdi is dead.  Follow that with the Indian and Egyptian forces.  One little step at a time.

[Barry S]

FifteensAway,

With regards to locomotives, I have seen some of the old Ertl or Shining Time Station, Thomas the Tank diecast engines and wagons used for 15mm games. I have some in storage for use for my 1880's Egyptian campaign.

I use Trevor the Traction Engine with my 15mm Boer War collection and it looks quite okay in my eyes. I added the canopy. I am planning on making an armoured variant one day...


I recently finished my own, much smaller, Anglo-Egyptian War British army and need to work on the Egyptians. I look forward to following your progress.
I also added the Post Office Rifles - just one base, but a must have in my army.

[FifteensAway]

Barry, yes, I have Trevor - and I'm pretty sure I bought it after seeing your version a while back.  He sits waiting to be worked on in my pulp collection which is at the front of the line just now, pulp, not Trevor.

There is also the option of some TT scale items from Langley Models: https://www.langleymodels.co.uk/awd1/index.php?route=product/category&path=249. They are a bit pricey and only 1:120 which might be a bit too small though some TT figures I bought seem a bit large - go figure?

If my listing seems a bit larger than yours it is dramatically smaller in total numbers than before I sorted down to this current list.  The one element I am still giving some thought to is whether or not to do the dismounted for all the mounted units - the mounted infantry for sure, the others, maybe.  Probably keep, not that many figures to paint when going for a basic tabletop standard in 15 mm.

[FifteensAway]

And now I've sorted my Mahdi forces - I think.  Almost all of the figures will be from the newer Blue Moon 15 mm range, a few leader and casualty figures may be drafted in from older items.

I'm thinking four total Banners with two each for Ansar and Hadendowah (the Fuzzies of the poem) with each banner having one unit each armed with spear, sword, and rifle.  Then one each of spear, sword, and rifle mounted and again comel mounted.  And then three guns, one for each of the Big Flags (two of them) and one for the Top Man.  Each unit gets two dead figures for 'regeneration' of the unit to effectively double the number of units but painting half as many figures.

The "I think"?  I have enough Bluemoon figures to do another Banner of Ansar which would only add about 60 more figures to paint, maybe a few extra for a leader.  I can paint that in a week or less.  Perhaps if using that extra Banner, leave out one of the Fuzzie Banners most of the time.

I've tallied it all up and that would be, British and Natives, about 1,030 figures in total, call it 1,100 if I add that extra Ansar Banner.  While that is a lot of figures it is a dramatic overall reduction - probably fewer than half of what I own.

Next dilemma are the British allies and the Egyptian force.

Before I leave off, the numbers work out to something like this with the doubled units using dead figures: 432 (or 540 with extra Banner) native foot versus 180 British foot (2.4:1 ratio{or 3:1 with extra Banner}) and 144 mounted native force versus 84 British mounted (1.7:1 ratio).  And that is only if I use the full British force.  Most games will not use all figures for either side. 

Thoughts?  Comments?  Suggestions?

EDIT: Turns out I have enough figures for four sets of Ansar - just need to dip into the older casualty figures and leaders again if I were to use them.