jemima fawr I require your help

[TheDilfy]

Hello, primarily aimed at jemima fawr as its WW2 & Normandy, but chip in if you know. I have lost my saved websites and sources thanks to a unwanted / not needed Microsoft update

I'm after a web source that showed all the different marks of Tanks for the British & Commonwealth Tank units in Normandy. It was on a page with similar background colour to this site, with a basic grid containing all the different marks of Shermans, Fireflies, Churchills, the number of each in each unit. Please can someone provide the link to it. Many thanks.

[modelwarrior]

]https://uktankmarkings.wordpress.com/]


 This one ?

[dadlamassu]

Possibly

http://niehorster.org/017_britain/44-06-06_Neptune/Land/z_tanks_44-06-22_21AG.html

or
https://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=110&art_id=590

or
https://www.reddit.com/r/RebuttalTime/comments/cy3a34/estimated_number_of_allied_tanks_in_normandy_and/

Hope there is something there that helps

[TheDilfy]

Thank you for the replies. Found it in a different site nearly same format except the notes are missing
 https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=399

[TheDilfy]

Thank you . The others will definitely come in handy, although  niehorster is rarely updated now 

Possibly

http://niehorster.org/017_britain/44-06-06_Neptune/Land/z_tanks_44-06-22_21AG.html

or
https://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=110&art_id=590

or
https://www.reddit.com/r/RebuttalTime/comments/cy3a34/estimated_number_of_allied_tanks_in_normandy_and/

Hope there is something there that helps

[TheDilfy]

No, but that's a useful so I'll save that, thank you. 

]https://uktankmarkings.wordpress.com/]


 This one ?

[Jemima Fawr]

Possibly

http://niehorster.org/017_britain/44-06-06_Neptune/Land/z_tanks_44-06-22_21AG.html

or
https://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=110&art_id=590

or
https://www.reddit.com/r/RebuttalTime/comments/cy3a34/estimated_number_of_allied_tanks_in_normandy_and/

Hope there is something there that helps

That's the fella!

Some points to note though;

Pay close attention to the '75 Conv.' column in the Churchill section.  This indicates the number of Mk III & Mk IV converted to 75mm guns.  This number shouldn't be added to the other totals.  For example, 31st Tank Bde has 60x Mk III & 12x Mk IV, with 34x 75 Conv.  This means that 34 of the previously-listed 72 tanks have been converted to 75mm; it doesn't mean 60+12+34.

141 RAC were administratively a  part of 31st Tank Brigade, but completely equipped with Crocodile and operated independently, so are listed separately.

6th Guards Tank Brigade are listed as having converted all its gun tanks to 75mm(156x Mk IV, 8x Mk IV OP and 164x 75 Conv.).  However, the brigade converted (or swapped out) one tank per troop back to 6pdr before deployment to Normandy. 

The above total also indicates that the Churchill Mk IV OP tanks were armed and did NOT have dummy guns!  They filled the 3rd & 4th tank slots in RHQs (Adj and RSM); they had an extra radio set (at the expense of some ammo) and were made available for the use of attached FOOs.  Generally speaking, only SP artillery battery commanders and some Bde and Div HQ tanks had dummy guns.  SP artillery FOOs and Armd RHQs had armed OP tanks.

15/19 Hussars are listed as a Sherman DD regiment, but by the time they reached Normandy in August 1944, they had converted to Cromwell/Challenger and became the replacement armoured recce regiment of 11th Armoured Division.

1st Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade is missing.  They were shipped to Normandy from July 1944.  They had two Cromwell regiments (no Challenger) and a few other support elements, mostly one-third understrength.  By 1945 they'd added the missing third regiment and one-third of the supporting elements by absorbing Czechoslovak PoWs.  They also added Challengers in 1945.

Re the FoW markings table; the diagonal stripe for 31st Tank Brigade is the wrong-way round.

[TheDilfy]

Excellent and thank you! So, amnI right in thinking, that i think you've answered a question re 11th Armd and 15/19 Hussars, which is Cromwells/Challengers alongside Comets in the same Armd Div.?

That's the fella!

Some points to note though;

Pay close attention to the '75 Conv.' column in the Churchill section.  This indicates the number of Mk III & Mk IV converted to 75mm guns.  This number shouldn't be added to the other totals.  For example, 31st Tank Bde has 60x Mk III & 12x Mk IV, with 34x 75 Conv.  This means that 34 of the previously-listed 72 tanks have been converted to 75mm; it doesn't mean 60+12+34.

141 RAC were administratively a  part of 31st Tank Brigade, but completely equipped with Crocodile and operated independently, so are listed separately.

6th Guards Tank Brigade are listed as having converted all its gun tanks to 75mm(156x Mk IV, 8x Mk IV OP and 164x 75 Conv.).  However, the brigade converted (or swapped out) one tank per troop back to 6pdr before deployment to Normandy. 

The above total also indicates that the Churchill Mk IV OP tanks were armed and did NOT have dummy guns!  They filled the 3rd & 4th tank slots in RHQs (Adj and RSM); they had an extra radio set (at the expense of some ammo) and were made available for the use of attached FOOs.  Generally speaking, only SP artillery battery commanders and some Bde and Div HQ tanks had dummy guns.  SP artillery FOOs and Armd RHQs had armed OP tanks.

15/19 Hussars are listed as a Sherman DD regiment, but by the time they reached Normandy in August 1944, they had converted to Cromwell/Challenger and became the replacement armoured recce regiment of 11th Armoured Division.

1st Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade is missing.  They were shipped to Normandy from July 1944.  They had two Cromwell regiments (no Challenger) and a few other support elements, mostly one-third understrength.  By 1945 they'd added the missing third regiment and one-third of the supporting elements by absorbing Czechoslovak PoWs.  They also added Challengers in 1945.

Re the FoW markings table; the diagonal stripe for 31st Tank Brigade is the wrong-way round.

[Iain R]

Excellent and thank you! So, amnI right in thinking, that i think you've answered a question re 11th Armd and 15/19 Hussars, which is Cromwells/Challengers alongside Comets in the same Armd Div.?

Only by 1945. 11 Armd were in the process of converting from Sherman to Comet when the whole Ardennes thing kicked off, and were hurriedly packed back into their worn out Shermans to go plug the gap. Only after all that did they go back to switching over for the last few months of the war.

[Jemima Fawr]

Yeah, wot Iain said.

Once 29th Armoured Brigade had gone back depot to finish converting to Comet (again!), 15/19H were also converted to Comet.  So the whole 11th Armoured Division had converted to Comet before going back into action after crossing the Rhine.

[Jemima Fawr]

There's also an anomaly with the 1st Polish Armoured Division, as the December 'snapshot' caught them right in the middle of converting to Sherman IIa (M4A1 76W), so it looks like there was a 3-way split between 75mm, 76mm and 17pdr tanks.  In fact, the 75mm tanks had all gone (except for artillery OP tanks and possibly some other HQ tanks) by the time they went back into action, being replaced by 76mm tanks.  They were also meant to have handed in their Fireflies, but got away with keeping them.

[Jemima Fawr]

Oh and there's another discrepancy with the 1st Czech Armoured Brigade holdings for December.  The list appears to show them having a regiment of Churchills, but that's not correct.   It just looks like they did, as 7 RTR (which had been attached for couple of months) had left their old tanks in the Czech depot when they converted to Crocodiles during the Autumn of 1944.

[TheDilfy]

Thank you @Iain and @Jemima your expert knowledge and insight is bloody useful. Do you have same info and insight for US armour in Normandy?

[Jemima Fawr]

Thank you @Iain and @Jemima your expert knowledge and insight is bloody useful. Do you have same info and insight for US armour in Normandy?

All I could do there is just quote from a couple of Zaloga books that everyone else has probably got.

There's some useful stuff there about the introduction of 76mm tanks, Jumbos, Chaffees and Pershings.