Need help - Warfare (and architecture) in the 12th / 13th century (10mm)

[Patrice]

Talking 13th century, there were not many large units yet. An example is the “Livre des Ostz“ (1294) which lists who must come when the duke of Brittany needs them.

Text here in Old French: https://www.tudchentil.org/spip.php?article48
What's interesting is the number of knights, sent by each lord, who would come alone or in very small groups (and even, some people must send a squire, or an armed man(?) or half a knight, or a quarter of a knight, or a third of a knight)...
Obviously these knights would come with a few followers. If your rules allow it, rather than regiments I would have the knights arriving near the battlefield in small groups accompanied by their retainers, and then the knights would form in larger units and their foot soldiers would form infantry units.

A few soldiers would arrive in regular companies (if not regiments) the text says that the bishop of St-Malo must send 30 archers with bows and arrows; the bishop and chapter of Rennes must send “all their men from the town“. Some others must give money (that could perhaps pay more units?)

[Daniel36]

Again, thanks for the clarifications.

You guys should check out Mount and Blade : Warband. It goes on sale all the time for very cheap and it is basically what we're describing here. There are mods for certain historical time periods, if you like some added realism, and even a stand-alone version called Viking Conquest that deals with the viking era. It's basically Lion Rampant.

[Daniel36]

Getting a pretty solid idea of what I am looking for, miniaturewise and the amount.

Now for buildings. Anyone have a good suggestion for 10mm buildings from around 12th / 13th century? I saw some really good and cheap buildings, but they were of a later period, better suited for Warhammer. Still amazing, but not what I am looking for.

Thanks again for all the help!

[fred]

Multi-based 10mm figures would work well for the Rampant series of games.

You can either count figures or bases - as you note if you count figures, you need to paint more figures but they are small and paint up quicker, and then look good as small units of 30-40 figures rather than 10-12.

Terrain - ones always worth a look
Total Battle Miniatures
Leven Miniatures
Pendraken
Magister Militum carried the JR Terrain - but not sure if they still do.

Not sure if you have decided on figures - but I have a bunch of 10mm Barons War figures that I’m up for selling as not sure they are fitting with the direction my 10mm armies are going (much more Warhammer centric)
 

[Daniel36]

Not sure if you have decided on figures - but I have a bunch of 10mm Barons War figures that I’m up for selling as not sure they are fitting with the direction my 10mm armies are going (much more Warhammer centric)

First of all, thank you for the directions to several scenery manufacturers. Send me a PM if you want to discuss me taking your models off your hands. Do you have a link where I can see what those models look like?

ps. Leven Miniatures seems to have ceased operations.

[Pattus Magnus]

I really hope Leven Miniatures is just having temporary website issues and isn’t gone permanently, they’re one of my favorite 6mm building suppliers!

[Patrice]

Some wargame websites are temporarily out of order these days.

[fred]

I think the Leven issue is just with their site

First of all, thank you for the directions to several scenery manufacturers. Send me a PM if you want to discuss me taking your models off your hands. Do you have a link where I can see what those models look like?

Let me sort something out tomorrow - I’ve been out much of today

[Maxromek]

I'm definitely not a historian, but I've been reeneacting 1138-1215 since 2013 now and learned a lot through listening to the "research department" of our organisation. A lot of period combat was very local, back then the Norman society has not yet dominated the entire Britain (or not even all the most populated parts), you had factions, personal feuds, etc., etc. So "large skirmish" is a pretty good scale for it. If your neighbour had a mill and you were feuding with him, you may try to take it over and one way to do it is to just fight.

I think wargamers overuse the "peasant" or "unarmoured levy" class of combatants a lot. If you could give them some pokey sticks and shields, plop them en masse at an easily defensible position, they could probably stay there and even defend themselves decent enough, epsecially against other levies. If you order them to attack, be prepared for a disatser. In a sense, as a local lord you had only two real types of combatants - your feudal retainers (household and tenant knights) and your levy. Quite possibly, your neighbour who you're feuding with has the exact same set. The way people broke this parity of forces is through hiring mercenaries, oftentimes from the continent. In that case, you send your levies to defend an important position, you let your knights bash it out with the neighbour's knights and then, if your enemy has not a band of his own, you take over all the strategic positions with your mercenary bands, which will make short work of the levies your neighbour left to defend them. Or if killing is your main goal, not taking of land, you send them to outflank and charge in the opposition's knights to help your blokes. So, if you're rich and can afford it, mercenaries are the proverbial spanner you can throw at your enemies works. And if they were poor and couldn't afford mercenaries of their own, well, tough luck.

There were also quite a few sieges in that period, which I believe were a much more common form of warfare than large pitched battles. So you have a lot of options there, although I think siege wargames have to be very "involved" to really encapsulate a siege properly. I often thought about playing some specific episode of a siege, like storming of a gate, with a skirmish ruleset. I re-enacted the Siege of Prudhoe Castle (1173) a few times as the Scottish force and it was very insightful. The moat is now a road there, but carrying a ladder down and then up sharp slopes was intense

[Daniel36]

Thanks, Maxromek. Very insightful as well.

My mind is definitely made up. This is a time period I like. The game Mount and Blade really captures the feeling well and since one of my kids and myself really like that game, I want to build something similar for the tabletop.

Lion Rampant seems the perfect ruleset for me. Still a little undecided about 10mm but I think I will stick with it. Just have to figure out how to base them, is all.

[Dice Roller]

A Lion Rampant unit is made up of 12 figures (6 for cavalry and skirmishers).
As you take damage you remove a figure.
So for 10mm you could put, say, 2 figures per base and just remove one base when you take a point of damage. This means you'd need 24 figures per unit. Or you could base them individually and stick with just 12 models per unit.
On average a standard 24 point force will comprise about 5 or 6 units. So if you go with 2 models per base you would be looking at a total of about 120 minis per army, less if you have more cavalry, more if you want different unit options.
But that kind of number. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

I reckon Lion Rampant in 10mm with multiple figures per base would look great. If I was starting from scratch I would be very tempted by that option.

[Maxromek]

I agree with dice roller, pop a couple of 10 mm figures on a base and count that as "one model". It also gives you an option of doing a wee diorama for your commanders 😁

[FifteensAway]

Unless doing a 1:1 ratio skirmish level, consider using 6 mm buildings with your 10 mm figures.  If you are fielding units, it will look better than using 10 mm buildings - at least most of the time.  Afraid I can't point you where to go though perhaps Hovels if they have 6 mm for the period (I just don't know). 

[Moriarty]

Print and cut card buildings are always an option:
https://mojobob.com/roleplay/props/buildings.html

[Daniel36]

you would be looking at a total of about 120 minis per army, less if you have more cavalry, more if you want different unit options.
But that kind of number. That doesn't sound too bad to me.

I reckon Lion Rampant in 10mm with multiple figures per base would look great. If I was starting from scratch I would be very tempted by that option.

That does indeed sound like a good amount. Around 120 men a side sounds like a pretty realistic number. I have some standard sized bases lying in front of me, round and square, but they feel a tad too big for the infantry, and puting 4 on each base will make the armies too big for my taste... Unless I halve the amount of infantry bases and remember that each one will count as two.

Something to think about.

As for buildings, I might end up just doing simple buildings myself. Sounds like it's not too difficult in this scale.

Thanks everyone for your help!

One more question... Would Lion Rampant work if I halved the amount of units? Would it work if infantry would be 6 bases and mounted would be 3?