Size of artillery / mortar barrages?

[brasidas19004]

I believe the size of a "sheaf" [?] for an artillery battery in WWII was about 100m square [and I expected round but was told years ago it's square].

For smaller guns in the 3" / 75mm range, and 81mm mortar batteries, would the size of the sheaf be smaller? 

What about smaller 2" / 50mm - 60mm mortars, which were common early war but seems like only the U.S. used them in numbers in late war.  Would that be even smaller?

My understanding is that it is related to a blast radius, so for wargame purposes I'm tempted to use 100m for a 100mm artillery battery, and 50m square for the smaller guns.

information appreciated!

[SJWi]

Although the 2" or 50mm mortars can fire HE at least in British service I think they are more used for firing smoke/illumination rounds. As they are deployed at platoon level they would be used individually and not as a battery.

[fred]

I’m reading a book detailing an American company commander’s experience in 44-45 in NWE - and in his company at least they pooled the 60mm mortars into a mini-battery.

I think in the original question you are perhaps asking about two things, the blast radius of different munitions as well as how many shells would be fired, over what area by a battery or regiment if firing at a target.

Shells have quite large blast radiuses (radii?) but with rapidly decreasing lethality the further from the point of explosion. Also different terrain could affect the killing / wounding effects (lower in soft ground) higher in trees or rocky ground.

I think the areas of barrages were quite defined for most armies - and I’m pretty sure the British and American artillery docs are available - give him a few hours and RMD will undoubtably be along to provide all the detail that I’m unable to recall (or never knew).

But you will need some level of abstraction within the rules to make things playable and useful in a game.

[brasidas19004]

I’m reading a book detailing an American company commander’s experience in 44-45 in NWE - and in his company at least they pooled the 60mm mortars into a mini-battery.  (or never knew).

But you will need some level of abstraction within the rules to make things playable and useful in a game.

Would that be Charles MacDonald's "Company Commander"?

Yes, I have the level of abstraction I need, just trying to see if it matters to have different templates.

[fred]

Would that be Charles MacDonald's "Company Commander"?

Yes it is


I think different templates are likely needed, at least between light, medium and heavy shells. But quite where do you draw the line between the 3?

[Rickf]

Not quite sure where you get the idea it's square shaped, whoever told you was misinformed. I can only go off modern figures, I was a Mortar platoon 2I/C in a previous life. The 81mm (3" ) has a lethal radius of 40m and a danger one of 180m. Possibly the confusion of the square thing has come about because we used to explain to people that a 3 barrel mortar line, barrels paralleled and 20m apart, would have a lethal area of approx a football pitch. Either way, shell fragments come out in a circle from the point of burst, though sometimes, depending on angle, they can be slightly elliptical.

[dadlamassu]

You might find your answer in the links below.  In military usage, a barrage is sustained artillery fire (shelling) aimed at a series of points along a line. Although killing personnel and destroyng positions and equipment are the main purposes, a barrage also intends suppresses the enemy by inflicting both physical and morale damage, disrupts communication, degrages visibility and denies movement in the barrage zone. 

British Barrage planning
https://nigelef.tripod.com/fireplan.htm

Artillery fire including engaging impromtu targets of opportunity
https://nigelef.tripod.com/maindoc.htm#impromptu_types

[CapnJim]

Not quite sure where you get the idea it's square shaped, whoever told you was misinformed. I can only go off modern figures, I was a Mortar platoon 2I/C in a previous life. The 81mm (3" ) has a lethal radius of 40m and a danger one of 180m. Possibly the confusion of the square thing has come about because we used to explain to people that a 3 barrel mortar line, barrels paralleled and 20m apart, would have a lethal area of approx a football pitch. Either way, shell fragments come out in a circle from the point of burst, though sometimes, depending on angle, they can be slightly elliptical.

Yes - the individual bursts create blast radii, which of course create a circular pattern.  The patterns of shot fall for various multi-gun batteries/sections could create a number of patterns.  Those patterns could be linear (2-gun sections), square, oblong, or linear (for 4-gun patterns), or rectangular, linear, or oblong for 6- and 8-gun patterns.  Those patterns were only fired on preparatory barrages (sustained fire by the batteries), or on hasty calls-for-fire by FOs (or in some armies, commanders).  In these calls-for-fire, the patterns were only fired when instructed by the FO ("fire for effect"), after any single-round ranging and adjusting shots were done.

As previously mentioned, the only tubes organic, or physically attached to, platoons were the British 50mm, German 5cm, and US 60mm light mortars (for example), usually single tubes.  As also mentioned, the US 60mm mortars were actually part of the rifle company's weapons platoon, and the company commander sometime kept his 3 tubes together at the company level.

Heavier mortars, and artillery, were sited further back from the front line, and fired in sections, or as half- or full batteries. 

As far as individual blast radii go, it depends on the scale game you want to use, and the guns/tubes you want to depict.  In platoon-level games like Chain of Command or Bolt Action, a single blast radius, even from a 50mm mortar would take up a good chunk of the average 6x4 board in 28mm.  They will need to be abstracted and shrunk, to make them playable.  And these ranges are usually danger-close.

Same for multi-gun patterns in bigger-scale games like Battlegroup and Iron Cross, the same concepts apply (except maybe the danger-close bit sometimes). 

For simplicity sake, I usually group guns/tubes into these groups (both for individual guns and multi-gun patterns).  I know this isn't necessarily absolutely accurate, but it helps playability (IMO).

Lt. and med. mortars and light artillery
Hvy. mortars and med. artillery
Hvy. artillery

 

[brasidas19004]

Not quite sure where you get the idea it's square shaped, whoever told you was misinformed.

Ha, it was Flames of War!
But their point was that the barrage is square, not a single round bursting.  They have a 6" square template for artillery barrages, it is pointed flat side towards the battery.  Obviously it is also abstracted somewhat.

A retired colonel I know was a mortar man, and he said they were typically rectangular for the U.S. , three round groups overlapping  to create the oblong you mention.  maybe I will use an oblong for especially historical "feel"!