Understanding the Old World setting - when did it go south for you?

[pixelgeek]

I am always curious how much impact tournament gaming has had on the development of GW's in-game universes.

HerbertTarkel mentions getting out of Warhammer when Age of Sigmar was released but I know quite a few players who had the same physical investment in the Old World game (in terms of armies) who moved right into playing Age of Sigmar. HerbertTarkel probably knows fellows like Paul from Calgary who either rebased the armies they could or just started painting new armies when Age of Sigmar was announced.

Those players were heavily invested in the tournament scene (not sure if Herb ever was) and I think that they were primarily interested in participating in that scene. The game seemed to be means of participating in it but not the aim in and of itself.

Which might explain why they put up with how tedious the Warhammer rules were :-)

The folks just seem to roll along with wherever the game goes because that is where the tournaments go and that is what their hobby actually is. Competing at tournaments.

This seems to be in contrast to folks like Frugalmax who appears to have a group they play with and they don't rely on official changes in the background material.

I suspect the difference is where you are getting your hobby energy from. I think we see folks playing games with miniatures and assume that it is the same hobby energy that we get. The miniatures play a different role for different folks. HerbertTarkel mentions how well painted his forces were. I tend to rush through paint jobs because I just want a painted force on the table. Same models. Different focus.

So the impact of changes in the background and the rules really can have wildly different effects. Frugalmax just shrugs and goes on doing what they were doing and folks like Paul in Calgary just roll with the changes because that is where the tournament scene is going to go.

[pixelgeek]

I had some thinking lately, why is Trench Crusade 1000 times more grimdark, than 40k? It is essentially the same thing, basically a ripoff 40k

Is it? How so?

The problem is, that WHF/40k is not a game setting any more, but an IP.

It is but I think that the era of drunken reprobates in the backroom making up background material based on gay jokes and political satire had ended decades ago. As soon as middle-class moms started coming into GW stores complaining about content they started watering everything down. That and the weirdoes who thought that the Imperium were the good guys.

[Rick]

You really will have to back that last little lot up with some evidence, I'm afraid. The humour, as far as I'm aware was never based on 'gay jokes and political satire' and the whole damn ironic twist of the 40k background is that the Imperium DO see themselves as the good guys, despite the rigid control. I think you give a few, woke, middle-America housewives entirely too much credit on that front - if GW watered everything down, it was probably as a result of selling to a far bigger audience than before and trying to please as many customers as possible.

[pixelgeek]

You really will have to back that last little lot up with some evidence, I'm afraid. The humour, as far as I'm aware was never based on 'gay jokes and political satire'

Lion'el Johnson and the Dark Angels are based on a homoerotic poem written by Lionel Johnson. Not a crude 'gay joke' but a gay joke for sure.

https://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/librarium/lionel_johnson.php
https://vqa.dickinson.edu/poem/dark-angel

And Rogue Traderis heavily influenced by the politics of the era. There are a lot of references for that.

I think you give a few, woke, middle-America housewives entirely too much credit on that front - if GW watered everything down, it was probably as a result of selling to a far bigger audience than before and trying to please as many customers as possible.

That is really the same thing though isn't it?

[anevilgiraffe]

You really will have to back that last little lot up with some evidence, I'm afraid. The humour, as far as I'm aware was never based on 'gay jokes and political satire' and the whole damn ironic twist of the 40k background is that the Imperium DO see themselves as the good guys, despite the rigid control. I think you give a few, woke, middle-America housewives entirely too much credit on that front - if GW watered everything down, it was probably as a result of selling to a far bigger audience than before and trying to please as many customers as possible.

the pygmies were very dodgy... and I have some...

and the Fimir rape subplot was adult dark and not teen dark

[Rick]

Lion'el Johnson and the Dark Angels are based on a homoerotic poem written by Lionel Johnson. Not a crude 'gay joke' but a gay joke for sure.

https://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/librarium/lionel_johnson.php
https://vqa.dickinson.edu/poem/dark-angel

And Rogue Traderis heavily influenced by the politics of the era. There are a lot of references for that.

That is really the same thing though isn't it?

I think you are reading more into this than there actually is - sure the Dark Angel/Lionel Johnson reference is interesting but is not a 'gay joke' by any means - the whole religious/desire text of the poem is an interesting background to the chapter but does not have to be interpreted as some sort of blatant homoerotic poem; there are other interpretations without needing to draw upon the authors sexuality (otherwise everything written by Walt Whitman or Emily Dickinson would have to be re-appraised!). And no, not really - trying to please everybody is not the same as being pressured into appeasement by a tiny minority.

[pixelgeek]

I think you are reading more into this than there actually is - sure the Dark Angel/Lionel Johnson reference is interesting but is not a 'gay joke' by any means - the whole religious/desire text of the poem is an interesting background to the chapter but does not have to be interpreted as some sort of blatant homoerotic poem; there are other interpretations without needing to draw upon the authors sexuality (otherwise everything written by Walt Whitman or Emily Dickinson would have to be re-appraised!). And no, not really - trying to please everybody is not the same as being pressured into appeasement by a tiny minority.

Well we can have different opinions. :-)

[Rick]

the pygmies were very dodgy... and I have some...

and the Fimir rape subplot was adult dark and not teen dark

Yeah it was, but that was dropped fairly rapidly and replaced by them having a matriarchal society I believe. It would be like remembering the entire Roman Empire just for the rape of the Sabine women.
The pygmies, though, were pretty indefensible even when they were made, although I've seen worse by other manufacturers since that time.

[Rick]

Well we can have different opinions. :-)

Of course we can, indeed should. And thank you for raising the 'Dark Angel' subject - I knew it was a reference to something but I didn't bother to find out until now! 

[Von Trinkenessen]

This is one of the most interesting postings I have read recently.
I got into WFB 1st edition after a period of " Prehammer " fantasy mass battles but left after 2nd only to return at 6th edition with my 2 sons. Needed a colourful alternative to endless camo painting  in all scales.
Several of my armies could not appear @ a shop as they were mostly historical Renaissance figures.
The arrival of the empire plastic gargoyle infantry was the start of the decline for me. Also that the rules were so what clunky when staging a large battle.
War hammer 1 K (aos) was the final nail in the coffin for me, having a vast empire army , also a vast elf and lizard men (my sons').
But saying that some of the new Cities figures have a decidedly Michael Moorcock feel to them.
Now I have gone down my own rabbit hole with the Von Trinkenessen ChroniclesA renaissance fantasy set against the backdrop of the Italian Wars before Pavia / more Da Vinci's Demons than George Gush
Too much water under the bridge and many have moved on.

[pixelgeek]

And thank you for raising the 'Dark Angel' subject - I knew it was a reference to something but I didn't bother to find out until now! 

The reason I think it was a joke was that I recall Rick P. mentioning it as a bit of 'English schoolboy humour' in an interview. And it strikes me as being something that a college educated English geek would include as 'humour'.

[Rick]

The reason I think it was a joke was that I recall Rick P. mentioning it as a bit of 'English schoolboy humour' in an interview. And it strikes me as being something that a college educated English geek would include as 'humour'.

Thats why I think you're reading too much into this - 40k lore is littered with obscure references which could be described as 'schoolboy humour' - having the primarch of the Night Lords named after the antagonist in Joseph Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' is another one, but also not a 'gay joke'.
Jagatai Khan, named after Chagatai Khan, a son of Temujin or Ghenghis Khan is another - there are loads of references.

[Citizen Sade]

Not just 40K. Oldhammer loved a play on words too: Eeza Ugezod, Yaskin Forit, "Mhinz Abeir" & "Z'yor Rond" etc.

[Rick]

Not just 40K. Oldhammer loved a play on words too: Eeza Ugezod, Yaskin Forit, "Mhinz Abeir" & "Z'yor Rond" etc.

Not to mention Emperor Karl Franz, named after the Hapsburg ruler of of the Austria-Hungarian Empire! 

[voltan]

I’m pretty sure Jervis created Ghazghull as a character, so this gets a pass from me. Ghaz is ‘his guy’!

Andy Chambers produced the first version, rolling up a warboss for the sample Goff list in Ere we go.
Unless there's an earlier reference I've missed.

As for the topic, the setting probably started going off course for me with 6th edition, the armies were becoming more compartmentalised, especially the Empire, and they tried to move the timelines along, starting the problem of writing themselves into a corner. But I still like the world and read the old novels and such, but for gaming I'm firmly sat in 4th/5th edition.

Quick aside but I do think the 4th edition Undead army book is the best from a background perspective, such a massive amount of fluff and worth reading even if you do nothing withe rest of the book.