Moon wargaming - some thoughts.

[Rick]

All true but most skirmish games, even sci-fi ones, are very much variations of earth type games. I was hoping for one that was built from the ground up to be different - where the central premise was a group of highly trained guys in spacesuits, in low gravity and no air, and how that would completely change the dynamics of the skirmish games we would normally play. So there has to be some discussion of the technical aspects, extrapolating from what we have now to what we might have in 30 or 40 years from now - sci fi but near(ish) future sci-fi.

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

All true but most skirmish games, even sci-fi ones, are very much variations of earth type games. I was hoping for one that was built from the ground up to be different - where the central premise was a group of highly trained guys in spacesuits, in low gravity and no air, and how that would completely change the dynamics of the skirmish games we would normally play. So there has to be some discussion of the technical aspects, extrapolating from what we have now to what we might have in 30 or 40 years from now - sci fi but near(ish) future sci-fi.

Okay, all hits become KIA or “out of combat.”no wounding ever occurs since even kevlar types of armoured suits are going to have many weak points that result in much worse effects when defeated than terrestrial, armoured infantry. Range of all weapons is the whole table unless your ground scale is more than 2k from end to end.  leap movement rates are 8 times as on earth as are areas of effect of shrapnel producing HE.  no aerial support drones but individual leaps by scouts up can give heightened ability to spot over some terrain but exposes the leaper to being spotted as well..it’s probably a wash. lots of dust to kick up to obscure vision from even automatic fire small arms. movement kicks up dust as well, which is more persistent than on earth which makes approaches easy to detect.  manipular tasks are always hard or very hard to succeed at due to gloved hands and bulky suits.  no flame throwers or weapons/vehicles needing oxygen they don’t have on board.  all recoil effects and physics problems can be handwaved away, by tech “designed to compensate”, even if firing while moving with unanchored weapons, otherwise a recoiling weapon must be fired while prone or braced.

Protection from radio jamming and offensive communications EW become essential since voice comm is impossible without radio.  Laser digital communication if in LOS remains an alternative. Artillery fire from orbital or lunar sources is going to have very long ranges. Endless daylight or no daylight at all.

i don’t see what else you might want, if this is to depict combat since 1969 to maybe 2039. 30 years from now it will only be AI/RPVs.

ya might want to look the old GDW rules Striker ( for Traveller)

[Rick]

That's not bad actually. Rather than all hits resulting in a kill, I was planning on using 'suit integrity' so even if you don't take a figure out immediately, there could be a damage effect to others in the unit being fired at. Also fatigue - controlled movements and actions in a cumbersome spacesuit are likely to be more difficult, so likely to build up fatigue points, which need to be dealt with. Dust clouds, ranges extending to the horizon (or whatever they hit first), long leaps raising the mover above cover where they'll be shot at - all these are things I've been thinking about so far.

[Cat]

Dust clouds are immaterial, except for briefly increasing chances of being spotted.  Without an atmosphere to suspend it, dust particles settle right back down.
 
Theory confirmed from lunar landings, LEMs kick up quite a dust cloud which immediately drops away.

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

yeah, persistent wasn’t the right word.  prevalent dust, maybe.

[Storm Wolf]

On the recoil argument front, just assume that this has been taken into account for the weapons being used and have been designed for use in zero or low G combat.

After all if you are going to send your troops to fight in that environment the last thing you would want is for them to be flying off in uncontrolled directions once they have fired their weapons.

As for any explosions just increase the explosive radius of effect and leave it at that and/or reduce armour saves by -1 to account for the danger of suit breaches etc.

Oh and the moon is most definitely Wensleydale. 

[Rick]

Dust clouds are immaterial, except for briefly increasing chances of being spotted.  Without an atmosphere to suspend it, dust particles settle right back down.
 
Theory confirmed from lunar landings, LEMs kick up quite a dust cloud which immediately drops away.

That's interesting and does make a lot of sense; no dust clouds to obscure lines of sight then, check! 
As to weapons, I was just going to work with what GZG has as the weapons for the Moongrunt figures and work out what they might do in a game.

[JonGZG]

I just thought that at this point, a little background on my thinking behind the Moongrunt range might be useful... anyway, it's worth exactly what you paid for it! 

My concept, when I first decided to do the Moongrunt stuff, was that they could be used for pretty much any timeline from "Alternative late 20th Century" ("For All Mankind" style), up to Near-Future scenarios (2050s?); I chose to call the two main factions the US and the Chinese, but you can use them as whatever you want, eg: Alt-Cold-War Russkies...?
The "British" force was a later addition by special request, and are quite deliberately very retro-60s Gerry Anderson style!

Feel free to ignore the names and descriptions I've used for them, particularly with regard to the weapons and equipment; I may have described some things as "lasers", but they can be anything you like from conventional guns, through gyrojets, railguns, energy weapons or whatever fits your preference and timeline. The USLF and Chinese infantry "rifles" are all visibly combination weapons, with a point-fire barrel plus a grenade-launcher type thingy - I envision those as probably low-velocity gas-powered launchers of some sort.

I can't promise anything about more factions at the moment, but I CAN say that Support Weapons for the exisiting factions are on the way soon! There will be the usual assortment of various types of tripod-mount direct-fire weapons plus some low-v mortars, heavier rocket launchers etc. The weapons and crews are all done, I'm just waiting for Real Life(tm) to leave me alone long enough for me to get them into moulds. There will also be some pintle-mount versions of the support weapons to go in the back of the Rovers and Buggies - Moon Technicals! 

Anyway, I'm loving all the ideas and discussions being posted here, it's all very inspirational!

Jon (GZG)

[JonGZG]

Plus, of course, the Moongrunt figures all work just as well for Mars (or anywhere else you like)... 

Jon.

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

Any space walk poses and kit in zero-g for scenarios such as attempts to board a derelict vessel or satellite? 

[JonGZG]

Any space walk poses and kit in zero-g for scenarios such as attempts to board a derelict vessel or satellite?

The spacesuited figures in my Civilians/misc range (mentioned earlier in this thread, heavy and light suits, not specifically part of the Moongrunt range) do have a pack of "floating" microgravity figures - a mixed pack of four figs in light suits, two in heavy, all with separate stand bases to take a thin wire support for the figure.

The Moongrunt range itself doesn't have any poses like that, but it would be a fairly simple job to snip/file the base away from a few of the standing figures, maybe gently bend some legs, and mount them in a similar way...?

Jon.

[Cat]

Nice shots on this vid.

At 09:10, the landing starts kicking up dust on the approach, and it all drops away pretty instantly after surface contact.

At 15:00, they put the rover through a road test, and you can see how quickly the dust settles as it bounces along.  If it was driving behind a ridgeline or crater rim, the dust might barely pop up high enough to be visible beyond on some of the higher bounces.

https://plus.nasa.gov/video/apollo-16-nothing-so-hidden-2/

[Rick]

I did see that - it looks like the heavier particles drop rapidly whilst the very fine particles dissipate and you can't actually see how long it takes for that to drop - either way, not much to block lines of sight. Good call Cat.

[Ben Cato]

This may be of some interest:
The Meanderings Of A Weapon Oriented Mind When Applied In A Vacuum Such As On The Moon
by US Army Weapons Command

Published in 1965 it discusses some of the issues of firing weapons on the moon.

https://archive.org/details/the-meanderings-of-a-weapon-oriented-mind-when

It is a fun read.

[anevilgiraffe]

the dust was a bugger for clinging to the suits as well, bringing it into the lunar module where, sans helmet, it could be breathed in. That bit isn't very gameable though, but it does remind me of that bit in the Good, the Bad and the Ugly with union troops grey from dust.