Mass Production or Prototypes?

[Dr. The Viking]

After the "The Sword and the Plant"-thread I kind of started wondering about some aspects of my own VSF.

We play our "campaign" in India. Overseas trade parties from Prussia and Britain are fighting over valuable resources of a mineral called Unobtainium, which is able to do almost anything if you put it to the right use.

But the thing was actually the WW1 parallel and the way we go about tanks/vehicles.

I've only gotten two vehicles so far. And I was thinking about expanding these two into "units" of 3. But the whole WW1 comparison actually got me thinking that units of vehicles isn't very VSF - that's the mass production of the later years.

VSF should be unique (and at times non functional) wonders of steam technology! Right?!

[Will Bailie]

I love vehicle breakdown rules - some of my best memories of Back of Beyond games is putting a huge effort (and points cost!) into getting an armoured vehicle onto the table, and finding that it is very reliable - I can rely on it to break down in the first turn! 

For VSF, I agree, each mechanical marvel should be unique, handcrafted by the best scientists and craftsmen of the Empire (or Republic, or Emirate, or ...).  And like the delicate masterpieces that they are, they should break if you so much as look at them funny.  Preferably at the time to cause greatest inconvenience to the owner, and the most mirth and merriment to his or her opponent.  Even if you have a unit, the individual devices should each be different  And after all, for VSF (or VAG, as Mr Plynkes would have it) should rely on the strong arm and sharp eye of the hero, not on some crude mechanical thing.

[former user]

Apart from the VSF "style" issue, there is also the question of wargame balance.

Having only a few vehicles with breakdown rules works fine in skirmish and small games and adds to the fun of it. When you start to make your battles bigger, you add units. Since in the VSF context unit diversity is rather thin (in gaming contexts, not design or appearance), some people prefer balancing loads of similar infantry  units with bigger models (ships/zeppelins/ironclads) or vehicle units. thgis is of course a matter of taste - gamers focussing on the gaming might choose this approach, whereas gamers focussing on the appearance will simply have different looking units.

If the focus lies on the gaming, one enters the "armament" spiral. Big models need to be balanced with a lot of vehicle units/artillery and so on.  In this case, too many breakdown rules will inhibit the gaming.

All is a matter of taste of course, but if you want to go "big", you have to consider these issues.
The worst case scenario is when You have lots of wonderfully and differently painted infantry units that are scythed down by some stunning VSF apparatus (in which case the game starts to revolve around destroying said contraption)  or by vehicle units. In this case the painting quickly shifts to lots of beautifully and differently painted artillery/heavy weapon units or vehicle units.

I made this experience when starting to collect my alternative and realistical designed IG army and lost all the time (and I am not a competition gamer, on the contrary)

so now that I am shifting "retro" with my collection, I try to balance it

[Thunderchicken]

Agreed on the unique thing. As you said mass production and 'Fordism' is a development of the early 20th century. While the Victorians could turn out goods at an impressive rate they still relied on the 'division of labour' which did lead to a degree of uniqueness.

Saying that it wouldn't do any harm having similar vehicles, maybe just alter the model and stats a bit. That's what I do.

[Ray Rivers]

Did my two Jeb Stupart tanks start this thread?   

To be quite honest, I made two of the same because... I liked the models... nothing more.

I also agree that conveyances should be unique and that mass production is a development beyond the scope of the VSF world.

Though a novice to the VSF era, I nevertheless realize that balance is the most important factor in gaming.  I don't want to have battles in which any single model or unit dominates the field.  My personal philosophic direction (which I believe is in keeping with the general view of the VSF population here) is that smaller vehicles should be vulnerable to a host of weapons, while larger vehicles will be more prone to mechanical problems.

I have two Prussian vehicles awaiting construction and painting.  One is a large, lumbering monster; while the other is... well.. very weird.

Variety is definately the spice of life in VSF as far as I'm concerned, but I do feel that one needs to be very careful to maintain a balance to ensure that the outcome of a battle is always in doubt.

[Dewbakuk]

I have some vehicle models that are the same, although not bought ones so they aren't 'exactly' the same and no more than two of something. I agree with the 'unique' sentiment but I don't see any reason why your engineer/scientist couldn't make more than one of something, particularly for the military.

[Jonas]

I think it would be natural, if the design is a success, that more than one will be produced, if possible...

But that said, I think maybe there should be most unique designs, but I have no problem with units of vehicles which are the same or almost the same, I have a couple of the Eureka/GZG Steam Charger and I plan to have 3 in all, but I don't know how often all 3 will be used in the same game, but I love the model.

[Dr. The Viking]

Did my two Jeb Stupart tanks start this thread?   

To be quite honest, I made two of the same because... I liked the models... nothing more.

I also agree that conveyances should be unique and that mass production is a development beyond the scope of the VSF world.

They most certainly did not.

The "VSF vs. Swords & Plants" did.

Though a novice to the VSF era, I nevertheless realize that balance is the most important factor in gaming.  I don't want to have battles in which any single model or unit dominates the field.  My personal philosophic direction (which I believe is in keeping with the general view of the VSF population here) is that smaller vehicles should be vulnerable to a host of weapons, while larger vehicles will be more prone to mechanical problems.

I have two Prussian vehicles awaiting construction and painting.  One is a large, lumbering monster; while the other is... well.. very weird.

Variety is definately the spice of life in VSF as far as I'm concerned, but I do feel that one needs to be very careful to maintain a balance to ensure that the outcome of a battle is always in doubt.

My take on Prussians was that they only used walkers. So I'm also doing the large lumbering monster (huntsman spider from ramshackle I hope).
I like the "big and tricky vs. the small and vulnerable"-approach. Makes total sense.

[Dewbakuk]

I have a couple of the Eureka/GZG Steam Charger

I have two of those too. They've had their tracks left off and legs attached to make Naval Reconaisance 'Steam Striders'.

[Jonas]

I have two of those too. They've had their tracks left off and legs attached to make Naval Reconaisance 'Steam Striders'.

Pics? 

[Thunderchicken]

Did my two Jeb Stupart tanks start this thread?   

To be quite honest, I made two of the same because... I liked the models... nothing more.

I also agree that conveyances should be unique and that mass production is a development beyond the scope of the VSF world.

Nothing wrong with your tanks in my opinion my good man. I've got two tanks of the same design and there is a subtle difference between them, you have to look hard though.  

[Bullshott]

While mass production of vehicles was a child of the 20th century, smaller runs of the same steam vehicles certainly did happen - think of trains and traction engines built in workshops to a standars proven pattern and, on a more military note, the armed steam launches/picket boats used by western navies in the latter quarter of the 19th century (and thats before you consider that warships were built to the same 'class', although on vessels of such a size and production timescale there would often be minor differences).

Personally, I would certainly allow for industrial power to have smaller vehicles of the same design but larger vehicles would be more likely to be either unique or, if nominally the same type, have variations in design. Prototype secret weapons should, of course, also be in abundance!

The next two vehicles that I am orking on are for my US marines. These are medium to large in size and may well have different weapon configurations.

[former user]

I think we should stay with the personal VSF-style and not make it too complicated

As a basic assumption, I think VSF does have something to do with standardization and mass output of the second industrial revolution
but not with "fordism"

while both are based on the principle of labour division, the 19th century relied on the "worskhop unit" (as seen in manufactured british luxury limousines), whereas "fordism" did break up this unit into standardized production steps that follow the build-up of the product

but IMHO this is all too theoretical for a very fictional topic like VSF
let's just leave it with the late Victorian period having very standardized production, and same vehicle units being possible

[fastolfrus]

I would suspect that prototypes should be uniques, but once actually proven as a valid design might then go into production as a standardised "class" of vehicle, although there may well be differences between vehicles, and possibly very large differences between prototypes and production vehicles.
If fielding a "squadron" they don't all have to be the same - you might have a "Mark II" leading a pair of "Mark Is" perhaps, or field modifications, stowage, etc.

I would look to naval designs for precedents - we are largely dealing with landships so naval designers should have influence. Look at the development of dreadnoughts (much later than VSF but well illustrated to show how classes could differ)

As for buying several vehicles because you like the design so much, well that's almost obligatory : you'll need one in home service paintwork, one for overseas (tropical) use, and depending on your nationality may also need vehicles for African, Chinese or European service, or off-world colonies.

[Dewbakuk]

Pics? 

I'll try, they're in storage at the moment but if I get the chance to pop out there I will.