All You never wanted to know about RURITANIA and were not bothered with before

[ushistoryprof]

Location, Location, Location always the most important aspect.  Here is a map of most of the pre-empire German states. Might I suggest either the Thuringen States area (expanding them a little through Saxony so they are not surrounded by the future empire) or the area of the Grand Dutchy of Baden.  Both would give lots are room for story lines for wars, intrigue and pulp like adventures. [/img]  You could also take the part of Hanover between Oldenberg and the Netherlands if you wanted to have a sea outlet.

[Captain Blood]

All references to Middle Earth are merely for the purposes of demonstrating a point, not because we want to tie Middle Earth in with Ruritania... though if we did, I say it should be in Khand! 

According to the 'Ruritanian Resitance' website at http://www.silverwhistle.co.uk/ruritania/index.html there are good reasons for assuming that the date of 'Prisoner...' is around 1870.

Yeah, because as I said, all the little 'Ruritanian' German statelets and principalities on which the fictional Ruritania was modelled, were swallowed up in the German Empire in 1871.

We're not necessarily going to stick completely to Hope's Ruritania, because there have been other re-imaginings which have played about with different aspects.

Honestly, if you haven't read it, get hold of 'Royal Flash' - the alternative Ruritania (and as the author's conceit has it - the 'real' Ruritania)

Those are way too big - Ruritania is a 'pocket principality' (like present-day Liechtenstein), not a whole country. Something on the scale of Mecklenburg-Strelitz is much more like it, and even that's probably too big.

- read the wiki article
that's all

Never mind the Wiki article - read the books! They are the one and only primary source.

- I must admit that I am a bit disappointed that already arguments are stated why it couldn't work...
this is the way to kill the baby in the cradle  - think positive

Listen Mush - you are about to start playing fast and loose with one of my favourite books. Before I have to endure months of made-up waffle about my cherished land of Ruritania, I'd like to be clear on the ground rules.
Are you chaps all going to be rattling on about some Ruritania derived from the 'real' Ruritania of Hope's novels - or is that just a jumping off point for a completely made-up universe of your own invention?
If it's the latter - fine: you're just nicking the name and premise of a fairytale central European principality to create your own world. I can rest easy. (You could just go with Vulgaria... Same kind of thing, but a lot less defined  )

But if it's Ruritania proper, I shall be watching... 

 

[Spong]

Yeah, because as I said, all the little 'Ruritanian' German statelets and principalities on which the fictional Ruritania was modelled, were swallowed up in the German Empire in 1871.

I was thinking about this and imagined that perhaps during the 18th century Ruritania could have sided with Prussia and hence when the German Empire formed may have maintained autonomy through having good diplomatic relations - just an idea.

Those are way too big - Ruritania is a 'pocket principality' (like present-day Liechtenstein), not a whole country. Something on the scale of Mecklenburg-Strelitz is much more like it, and even that's probably too big.

I quite agree, as I said it probably shouldn't contain Prague or Dresden as that picture does either, it was merely to serve as an illustration. Here is perhaps a better idea of location and size I quickly threw together:

Listen Mush - you are about to start playing fast and loose with one of my favourite books. Before I have to endure months of made-up waffle about my cherished land of Ruritania, I'd like to be clear on the ground rules.
Are you chaps all going to be rattling on about some Ruritania derived from the 'real' Ruritania of Hope's novels - or is that just a jumping off point for a completely made-up universe of your own invention?
If it's the latter - fine: you're just nicking the name and premise of a fairytale central European principality to create your own world. I can rest easy. (You could just go with Vulgaria... Same kind of thing, but a lot less defined  )

But if it's Ruritania proper, I shall be watching... 

 

Because this project came largely from Red Orc's ideas (and subsequently he gets to approve or disprove further ideas) and he seems to be a fan of the original books I can't really see this particular acorn falling too far from the tree. I for one am very keen on imaginatively extrapolating on existing history or fiction while remaining as closely to canon as possible. In my opinion it is worth sticking with things that are logical and make sense as it is more realistic and makes it easier to suspend disbelief, which results in greater immersion and a richer experience.

[Red Orc]

Hang on, I know former user said I should get final say, but honestly I was going to object to that. I'm not the God of All Things Ruritanian; I enjoyed the book years ago and am making efforts to re-acquaint myself with it, that's it so far. I'm happy for this to proceed somewhat carefully because I'm keen to keep everything workable from Hope's Ruritania.

Here's the way I see it: we have two choices, I think.
1 - keep Ruritania tiny and ethnically German (even Saxony that Hope's Ruritania seems to be based on wasn't purely German however), say it was swallowed up in 1871 and is a small kingdom in Germany, and sacrifice the idea of doing anything post-1918, except maybe having a Ruritanian Railway that provides rolling stock for BoB/RCW games, and occassional references in Pulp games;
2 - have a 'Greater Ruritania' that is somewhat bigger, possibly to the extent of being a '3rd' German power (besides Austria and Prussia) and posit the idea that between 1871-1939 there is another multi-ethnic Central European Empire that perhaps includes bits of Saxony, Bohemia, Poland, Hungary and Yugoslavia (or something like that).

EDIT:
There may be a third choice that could potentially solve one problem. It's about 100km (60miles) from Dresden to Prague - too small for a reasonable  'kingdom' to fit in there but certainly enough space for something bigger than Lichtenstein (24km long). If we assume Ruritania includes some land on both the current German and Czech sides of the border, we than have to posit that Ruritania isn't pure German, but as the Czech area was part of the Sudetenland anyway, what we have is a bit of Saxony that is mostly German with some Sorbs, and part of Bohemia that is mixed Czech/German. That doesn't seem a vast problem to me.

I'd then suggest the two north-western-most districts of the Czech Republic (around Ústí nad Labem, and Karlovy Vary) and the bits on the German side between the current border and Pirna, Dippolswolde and Marienburg, more or less. That would give us a stae about 40km wide and nearly 100 long.

Now, there's no actual reason that would be necessarily part of Germany. It might have gone to Austria-Hungary and split off again after WWI. That might give us a justification for an independent German state in the Interwar period.

[former user]

Never mind the Wiki article - read the books! They are the one and only primary source.

the part of the WIKI article I was referring too is this:

"Ruritania" is used as the placeholder name of a hypothetical country to make points in academic discussions, much as Alice and Bob are in logic and computing.

Jurists specialising in international law use it and other fictional countries when describing a hypothetical case illustrating some legal point. Australian foreign minister Alexander Downer cited Ruritania as a fictional enemy when illustrating a security treaty between Australia and Indonesia signed on 8 November 2006: "We do not need to have a security agreement with Indonesia so both of us will fight off the Ruritanians. That's not what the relationship is about," he said. "It is all about working together on the threats that we have to deal with, which are different types of threats".

Walter Lippmann used the word to describe the stereotype that characterized the vision of international relations during and after the First World War. Ruritania is used as the name of a highly nationalist country in Equatorial Cyberspace [1], a fictional continent used for a peacebuilding and conflict resolution simulation at McGill University.

Ruritania has also been used to describe the stereotypical development of nationalism in 19th century Eastern Europe, by Ernest Gellner in Nations and Nationalism, in a pastiche of the historical narratives of nationalist movements among Poles, Czechs, Serbians, Romanians, etc. In this story, peasant Ruritanians living in the "Empire of Megalomania" developed national consciousness through the elaboration of a Ruritanian high culture by a small group of intellectuals responding to industrialization and labor migration.

etc
as far as I understood it, the fictional literature is meant to be an inspiration
apart from that, Ruritania also appeared in other fictional works - this is called hommage or intertextuality....

My suggestion that @Red Orc should authorise is that it is his idea and project.
This does not exclude that later on other active contributors can form a discussion board on the official background - as far as they actually play in it
This is meant to reduce useless discussion and to get it started off, not to exclude others




I am not exactly sure what "Mush" means, nor the reason I am adressed in this way.....
however CB, I think You can sleep easy with Your concerns (see above)
otherwise You can also join in constructively if You intend to take part in the project

In general I tend to get tired if someone (like Red Orc in this case) has a good idea and others start to crossfire about why this and that can't work WITHOUT offering an alternative (this is destructive IMHO)
choosing a fictional country usually means that people do not want to game historically - then sticking to a "Holy Bible" that precisely outlines how things should be makes the whole concept a bit absurd methinks....
Anyway, thanks for pointing out the websites about Ruritania, I will check them.

OK, now my thoughts to the location:
I understand that Ruritania is meant to be german speaking - well there are some regions with german speaking population that were not sucked up into the Empire. Leaving aside Netherlands and parts of Belgium (not actually German but very closely related linguistically speaking), there is Luxembourg, Liechtenstein, parts of Moravia, Bohemia and Poland, Transsylvania and also maybe Galicia if one wants to count Yiddish to the german languages.
It is clear that the historical counterparts did not necessarily have German rulers, but I think this is not the point here.
The main sources of influence at the considered time and general location would have been Germany, Austria and Russia - I think this is the interesting point here. Also the ethnical mix.
So the location chosen would be somewhere around the northern Carpathians and Tatra, if my geography is not too obsolete.
The historical setting is one where ethnic regions struggle to establish a nation, and it was not uncommon for kings to be imported (like Romania e.g.).
IMHO the suggestion roughly around Czechia and Slovakia, and more eastwards for Molwania  should be favoured.

If I could please have a coloured map of political Europe around 1870 I shall make a few illustrated suggestions.

[argsilverson]

Some I found, but I do not know whether it helps or not:

Inventing Ruritania:
http://yalepress.yale.edu/YupBooks/book.asp?isbn=0300073127

[former user]

this book looks interesting
unfortunately oop
I shall check the library

interesting enough, Ruritania is suddenly eastern Europe....

interesting enough, Ruritania is suddenly eastern Europe....
here a map of central european languages 1910

[argsilverson]

And some other vision of Ruritania:

http://vsf15mm.blogspot.com/2008/06/ruritania.html

[former user]

this is an interesting map

but it does not appear to contain anything at all from the books?

[argsilverson]

this is an interesting map

but it does not appear to contain anything at all from the books?

Probably the didn't bother to adapt the names!

wait a minute: I think I have found a large river but where is the lake?

[former user]

OK, so here my rough suggestions, based on maps 1871 and 1923

[Red Orc]

I like the maps there former user, perhaps they're best for the possible 'East Ruritania'?

There is an interesting discussion here (link) that discusses the possibility of the failure of the German Empire to come together as a VSF alternative history, allowing for an independent Ruritania state post 1871. This would leave us potentially with a very different world up to WWI (and obviously we'd have to drag things back on track for viable Interwar/Pulp action).

Or, how about the idea of there being two seperate Ruritanias? One, 'Western' Ruritania, is the Sudentenland/Saxon setting of 'Prisoner...' and the other Hope novels; the second, 'Eastern Ruritania' (also known as Molvania) is not connected, but perhaps was also ruled by the House of Elphberg at some point, and after WWI the eastern portion of the Elphberg lands are the 'East Ruritania' of former user's railway (located somewhere around Galicia I guess, perhaps as in former user's map above)?

There's also this wiki page on 'Ruritanian Romances' (link) that has some other interesting bits that it may be possible to use (though the chances are that every one we attempt to use will compund these very difficulties!) - war and annexation of Grand Fenwick in 1907(?) for instance.

[former user]

Two is just fine, but unconnected?

then it should be Ruritania and Molvania
but where is Ruritania then?
I think a combined approach would be better, like in the case of Czechoslovakia where different ethnic regions are sometimes unified and sometimes not, according to the general history.

I think the only kick we have to give to the real history is that Napoleon III regognized the importance of oil fired engines (which is not far from the truth), this led to a draw in the war of 1871 and a later and more gradual unification of the German Empire.

this could have led to a weakened Austro-Hungaria and a pre WWI seccession, with WWI being fought on a different scale in the West and also a bit later (trench war is boring anyway  )

the only issue is then - do we want WWII with Nazis or not? then the German Empire would have to loose WWII

The following Soviet supremacy is a given anyway

[Red Orc]

I don't think having East and West Ruritania unconnected is that much of a problem, is it? Brandenberg and East Prussia were disconnected, Upper and Lower Saxony were unconnected (and if I remember correctly, in this case too the name comes from the same ruling house ruling both), Lichtenstein is named for a castle in Hungary (?) that the ruling family used to own, but isn't connected geographically... is it impossible that an area known to the local (mostly Slavic) inhabitants as 'Molvania' is known to its German-speaking minority as 'East Ruritania' in recognition that at one time (before Napoleon's invasion in 1806 perhaps?) the same House of Elphberg ruled both?

In the Middle Ages there were lots of states that had stupid borders, with bits of other states inside them, or bits of themselves on the other side of different states; I suspect precisely because modern nations began to form from scattered domains of feudal lords - or more correctly families. What if the 'Elphberg patrimony' was a similar case?

[former user]

maybe You should specify "unconnected"
different states?
common borders?

when unified (common ruler), when not?

of course they are basically different with language and all, but hungaria and austria?

how about the alternate timeline?