WHFB 8

[OSHIROmodels]

Well, I just can't wait to get my 70 man strong unit of Leopolds Leopard Company Pikemen on the table 

cheers

James

[Tacgnol]

Just popping my head over the parapet here regarding unit fillers.

GW used four miniatures to a base for their examples. Fair play to them, they can do whatever they want with the vast range of toys within striking distance. But it doesn't look that hard to make a unit filler with just one model. Here's an example from the Drinking And Modelling blog

http://drinkinandmodelin.blogspot.com/2009/11/progress-report-good-news-bad-news.html


Here's a thread on unit fillers from the Warhammer Empire forum. Most of them have less than four miniatures to a 40mm base.
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=30647.0

[rob_the_robgoblin]

I can't even be bothered to read this. 

Tacgnol, that's a nice unit filler!!! There's loads of great opportunities there now.

Jimbibbly, 70 Leopolds Pikemen?!!! I'd love to see that!

Yeah Rob alderman is right, we are talking about the rules not the price of figs.  

I too own a huge empire army and will have no problem fielding large units.  

So educate me/us.  What is the advantage of a Horde unit?  
What about a 10 figure wide unit.  Will all the figs in the front row get to fight?
What is the step up rule, will a unit get to fight even if its front rank gets killed?
Those changes would go along way to fixing some of my concerns about prior sets.
Is there a counter charge or some other charge rule?
Do we use the same army books but with the new limits until the new lists come out?

Thankyou.
Hordes get some nice advantages. The whole front rank fights, the second rank all get one attack. The third rank get attacks if they have spears.
They are very hard to take down, as they always have been.

As for the other questions, I don't know, and I am only part of the way through the rules section. I have yet to see the full advantage.

[Argonor]

You want the long list or the short list? Probably the best example is Privateer Press since they use practically the same business model as GW, on a model per model basis they are more expensive. Remember the Vampire Counts calvary boxed set that everyone was having fits over because it was $90 USD for five character level models? PP's basic cavalry is $20 a figure. And that's not the only example of course.

I  cannot speak for other markets, but Privateer (as the only one of your examples that ever made it into a Danish games store) is all but extinct in the Danish market - most often heard reason for people dropping Warmachine (Hordes never really reached the public here, I think): Too expensive miniatures.

Gamezone miniatures is another good one since they basically are the Spanish GW model for model.

I think Gamezone is more or less trying to feed the GW community with supplementing minis. Why should they not try to tap into the same pockets that GW do? On the reason that 'If someone is willing to pay that much, why shouldn't we charge the same?'

How about Merc Minis? $10 USD for each rank and file.

I have never seen any of their minis on a wargaming table. I had one look at their site once, and decided their pricer ange was not for me. As I suspect a whole lot of others do.

Corvus Belli Infinity is another good one: $12-20 USD average for heavy weapons figs and characters. The previously mention Red Box Games is about $10 a figure for unit champion level figures. I can go on.

Same as above. I don't know how big Infinity is, have never met anyone playing it. Their minis are of extremely high quality as far as I can see from pics.

Also I'm not going to argue rules with you since you seem dead set against allowing that any set of rules GW makes could make is anything other than a conspiracy against wallets.

I should have been more precise in my wording: Every NEW edition of a ruleset is. I do not think that it is unfair of them - I just cannot understand that so many gamers are unvilling to admit it.

I actually think they made 2 good wargames (3 if you count Rogue Trader): Space Marine 2nd Ed. (aka Epic Space Marine) and Warmaster. Both of which have been retired to the Specialist Games section, as the scale of miniatures does not allow a new edition to make players buy re-sculpted models for their arnmies (they relaunched Epic believing that a change of bases would make people invest heavily - and failed). The same fate has befallen Necromunda, Mordheim, and Blood Bowl, as they simply cannot be turned into cash cows because players simply do not need to constantly buy new minis for them.

"I keep hearing the argument, that other companies also sell expensive minis. Yes they do. And often get penalized to do so "

My argument is that they catch more flak for it than anyone else.

They probably do. Because so many more people KNOW them. Can't see anything unfair in that, you can't shoot at a hidden enemy....

As for Rackham; It's my understanding that most complaints against them are that they dropped their metal line. Which was more expensive per figure than their new prepaints.

Yes, they had to drop them because they did not generate enough sales. Just like Heartbreaker went bust on Warzone and Chronopia when they tried to 'go GW', so nearly did Rackham because of their fantasy ranges (at least I heard so from an 'insider').

The one BIG problem with gamers is, that we always want all we see, and we are all willing to offer big oral support to anyone putting out some nice sculpts, but when it comes down to it, we only have that much money to use on the hobby and have to prioritize food for our children, etc.



But I actually think this discussion has become derailed, somehow, as my posts really were not directed against their pricing (which I DO find ridiculous, but - as stated - fair enough as long as someone are willing to pay, that's just the mechanics of a free market - I just don't get why gamers all around the globe don't play their games with other, cheaper, minis, if they are so fond of the rules), but merely at their rules, that I find thoroughly uninspired (as well as uninspiring).

(Buying the boxed games is another matter, as you actually get minis at a more reasonable price by doing so)

And I have never watched (or participated in, for all that matters) a game of 40K or WH that took under 3-4 hours, and where much more time was spent argueing over rules, and looking up the same, than actually pushing the minis around. And I never play competitively, only with friends in good spirits....

And I would, for once, like to know WHAT it is that makes people think especially those two games are so fantastic that it justifies buying another version of the rules every 4-5 years. I did so 3-4 times and really regret it. Money had been better spent on some nice minis. Everytime I bought a new edition it was in the hope, that this time it would get better - and most of the times it seemed so, just until the first Warhammer Armies came out, and every good intention that might have neen in there went down the drains... again.

Sold all my Orcs and Goblins some years ago. Still have a lot of GW minis from the good old 80's and 90's as well as a lot of LotR minis from this last decade, that I use for skirmish gaming of various kinds.

And, Rob:
If you don't want to hear opinions that differ from your own, why do you attend internet fora? Fora are for sharing , AND discussing (in a civilized manner, under which statements like 'shut up' not really belong), not just for padding each others backs.

[wolfgangbrooks]

I can't even be bothered to read this. 

I love you too.

"Hordes get some nice advantages. The whole front rank fights, the second rank all get one attack. The third rank get attacks if they have spears."

Actually we both got this wrong. Only models in base contact fight, but models directly behind those that are fighting get 1 supporting attack. Hordes get an additional ranks worth of supporting attacks. And spears get an additional ranks worth as well if they don't charge that round. (basic rules don't mention pikes) So a large enough horde of Empire spears fully in base contact with an enemy will get 40 attacks. Small elite units of knights don't have it so easy anymore.

Umm yes, yes they do  . You  owe them your livelihood for example....

Once a sale is made and both parties are satisfied with the deal (i.e. you got what you paid for) the "owing" part is over. Attitudes like that lead to people believing they should have some kind of pull or other reward from a business for buying something from them 20 years ago. And if it's my 'livelihood' I owe the customers as you say, they are welcome to it for all the good it will do them. :p

"If you want to make money you give the consumer exactly what they want. If you have started and failed in this business, with that attitude, it's no wonder you sound so bitter."

I'm not exactly bitter, but the attitudes I've encountered since I've entered the business and gotten to know people better have made me much more cynical about people in this hobby. We haven't failed as a business, but we're not doing anything like great though we try to improve with every show.

I don't give my customers attitude, quite the opposite. I save my venting for message boards. Lucky you.

"If your product is good, your price fair and you meet customer expectations you'll do very well, many small companies prove this every day."

And like I said; many fail or aren't able to gain purchase because of prevailing attitudes. Ask Richard Ansell about his difficulties getting gamers to accept his line of properly proportioned Napoleonics sometime. Capitalism isn't all it's cracked up to be, and hard work is too often rewarded with apathy. I wonder where you work that you don't realize that.

"GW do this, they can get away with charging what would be way too much for a relatively poor product because they offer other things than just the mini and rules to their market."

And what relatively poor product would this be? If you don't like their rules, fair enough. However, saying the produce poor quality product is questionable.

"The main thing being accessibility, brand recognition and market saturation. Without this they wouldn't get away with selling what they do now for the price they charge."

You mean like the Perries, Wargames Foundry, and Privateer Press?

[wolfgangbrooks]

I  cannot speak for other markets, but Privateer (as the only one of your examples that ever made it into a Danish games store) is all but extinct in the Danish market - most often heard reason for people dropping Warmachine (Hordes never really reached the public here, I think): Too expensive miniatures.

We obviously have different experiences. Many people here prefer Warmachine because they perceive it to be less expensive than GW games.

"If someone is willing to pay that much, why shouldn't we charge the same?"

Except that they charge more than GW does... That's why I said look them up.

"I had one look at their site once, and decided their pricer ange was not for me. As I suspect a whole lot of others do."

But do people get angry about it and continually needle forums every time the subject comes up? I don't think so.

"I just cannot understand that so many gamers are unvilling to admit it."

Again, we have two very different experiences, both online and in person. Your kind of attitude is prevalent most places I go (several conventions a year in the US). However I believe GW has a very good business reason for the rules churn. We can get into it if you like. However I believe that if GW said no more to continually refreshing it's rules and army books it would be dead as a business a year or two after implementing it's decision. It's what keeps them and their retailers alive and interest in their games as high as it is.

"(they relaunched Epic believing that a change of bases would make people invest heavily - and failed). The same fate has befallen Necromunda, Mordheim, and Blood Bowl, as they simply cannot be turned into cash cows because players simply do not need to constantly buy new minis for them."

For Epic, they said several times in the rulebook that basing did not matter. Indeed the model count in Epic 40k and the last gasp of Epic Armageddon dropped both times from what it previously had been.

As for the other games, Yes I agree with you 100% about the other games. If something can't support it's weight in sales, it gets discontinued. I know this has hurt their public opinion, but they have had to weigh that against what it would cost to support and stock in stores such slow moving items. It's a shame, but I agree with it as a business move. However rather than just put them away altogether they decided to make them free downloads and allow the fans to continue to edit them as living rulebooks.

Surely they get some credit for that.

"Can't see anything unfair in that, you can't shoot at a hidden enemy...."

I guess I should have said; "They catch a disproportionate amount of flak for that." Better?

"The one BIG problem with gamers is, that we always want all we see, and we are all willing to offer big oral support to anyone putting out some nice sculpts, but when it comes down to it, we only have that much money to use on the hobby and have to prioritize food for our children, etc."

Sure. I know all about the bluster first hand. It's why I don't solicit ideas from the message boards. I know that the "OMG IT'S SO AWESOME!!!" crowd doesn't have any money.

"I just don't get why gamers all around the globe don't play their games with other, cheaper, minis, if they are so fond of the rules), but merely at their rules, that I find thoroughly uninspired (as well as uninspiring)."

Oh. That's easy. People want everything to be official. Look at TMP everytime some new sci-fi or fantasy ruleset comes out people ask if they can use their models with it or if it's tied to a miniatures line. Or the rule sets that talk about having a points system, "So at last you can use all your models!!!!!" I know the first question I get asked every time about our own line of miniatures is: "Does it have a rules set to go with it?" And we've lost I don't know how many sales for Hydra's War Rocket line of spaceships because the rules aren't out yet. People love the figures but refuse to buy until the official rules are out.

One interview I read with Jervis Johnson said that one of the reasons GW came out with Apocalypse is because people were asking for an official set of rules to play big battles with hordes of troops and titan models and such.

Gamer's aren't as smart and creative as they like to think they are.

"And I have never watched (or participated in, for all that matters) a game of 40K or WH that took under 3-4 hours, and where much more time was spent argueing over rules, and looking up the same, than actually pushing the minis around. And I never play competitively, only with friends in good spirits...."

Well I think this new edition of WH goes quite a ways to making the game faster. We'll see. Though I agree totally about 40k. I love the background and the models but the system is not made for the army levels it's played at even with the current streamlining. I think it's half GW's fault and half the player's fault. GW wants to sell models of course, but the player's want to push all their toys around in one game and not have to make tough choices about what to take in their army. It's why Apocalypse was such a big hit for them.

I think 40k is better at much smaller points values than the norm. Say under 1000, though recent army books are all very heavily weighted towards 1500-2000 point games as that's what most of their fans seem to be telling them they want. Especially as it's a standard tournament points level. GW seems to be trying to take the steam out of tournaments recently by saying repeatedly that their games are not meant to be competitive. But they are beholden to the fans and momentum is against casual play.

"And, Rob:
If you don't want to hear opinions that differ from your own, why do you attend internet fora? Fora are for sharing , AND discussing (in a civilized manner, under which statements like 'shut up' not really belong), not just for padding each others backs."

At least I'm not the only one who thinks this. Taking controversy out and practically mandating every other post to be "OMG you are a god among men, I am not worthy!!!" has made me gravitate away from forums as a whole. I'd like some real discussion, but it's real hard to find.

[Viper]

One interview I read with Jervis Johnson said that one of the reasons GW came out with Apocalypse is because people were asking for an official set of rules to play big battles with hordes of troops and titan models and such.

Gamer's aren't as smart and creative as they like to think they are.

Kids brought up by the Evil Empire (who play in EE stores) have the creativity quickly stamped out of them. They can be as creative as they want with painting and modeling (as long as it's all EE product), but gods help you if you try to tinker with their finely crafted perfect rules.
 

It has taken many months for me to begin to tap back into my creative side when it comes to tinkering with rules sets as that side of my hobby has been sorely wasted while I only had an EE store to play in for years.

[leadfool]

Gentlemen, so back to the rules
Too bad that only the in contact figures in the front rank fight.  I was getting excited about the rules if all the front rank could fight.  So we can still end up with that weird situation where with a really wide unit, half the figures are just standing around. 
I do like the idea of the step up rule.  It has always been a frustration that the second rank is there and yet don't get to fight if the front rank was just killed. 
Warhammer Historical has had the counter charge rule for some time which reduces the illogic of some of the charge rules.  It always seemed strange that my mounted troops wouild spend a turn or 2 moving at full speed towards the enemy, and then if the charge was in my opponents turn, my troops seemed to stop put down their lances, and take the charge.

I want a rule set where all the figures in a units front rank fight, where being wider and deeper then your opponent is an advantage, where a unit that is moving towards the enemy at full speed is considered to be chargeing, even if the contact occurs in the other players turn.  A rule set that does not make leaders and heroes super powerful.  .....Oh wait, I have those rules, they are TACTICA by Arty Contliffe.

Anyway if what it takes to sell miniatures and to keep the game lively, is to come up with new rules, that is fine.  I have never been against new rule sets, even if my favorite was 3d edition (Bring back free hack!).   The problem has never been with the new rules.  It has been with the army of the month being the most powerful.  Now if they would leave empire for last instead of first, it might become really powerful.  oooh!

[wolfgangbrooks]

@ Viper: I don't think that's it either. GW may not be helping, but I don't think a lack of imagination in players is their fault. I think it's a larger cultural problem. Look at everyone on these boards with a project copying some movie or video game. Or the debates on whether a particular model of power armor is enough like a "hydrocephalic gorilla" to please the Starship Troopers fans. (There's a debate that never gets silly and pedantic. )

I like what Yahtzee said in his review of the Dragon Age video game: "There's something terribly weird about the standard fantasy setting.  Not least of which the phrase "standard fantasy setting" can be uttered without irony. Look at us, we're a civilization so steeped in escapism that we've managed to find mundanity in something that doesn't exist and never will."

Hell, historical gaming is all about a lack of creativity. And I realize that it can be fun to play in someone else's universe for awhile, but if you take the time to look around it's kind of sad how few people are even trying to do something that's not "official" in some capacity.

Gentlemen, so back to the rules

Yes, let's stop discussion of anti-GW rants so you can make an anti-GW rant. What a change of pace.  I like how you pretend that you're taking the moral high ground by doing so as well.

I don't know what more there is to say really. Unless someone wants to ask questions of those of us who have the new book?

[joroas]

Thanks WB, now then, as mine are hurtling towards me as fast as the Royal Mail can walk, what do people think of the new rules, both gameplay and aesthetics?

[joroas]

With the new rules coming in at a hefty £45, plus new bits, I think it's time I shed my armies or looked for some new rules........... 

Ha, I started off like this and then bought them anyway, I kinda knew I would....................... 

[OSHIROmodels]

I had another flick through last night and my work mate had a shufty yesterday. I must admit I was distracted by the pretty pictures too much to really concentrate on what I was reading but they seem fair enough to me and my mate. We are hopefully going to have a 2000pt bash on Monday (as long as work lets up) and I'll get a chance to wield those 70 pikemen 

If we do get a game in on Monday then I'll try to write a report about it (how the rules work, not about the fact that I'll loose    because my track record is about two wins in as many years  )

cheers

James

[Ramshackle_Curtis]

Gentlemen, so back to the rules
Too bad that only the in contact figures in the front rank fight.  I was getting excited about the rules if all the front rank could fight.  So we can still end up with that weird situation where with a really wide unit, half the figures are just standing around. 

I want a rule set where all the figures in a units front rank fight, where being wider and deeper then your opponent is an advantage, where a unit that is moving towards the enemy at full speed is considered to be chargeing, even if the contact occurs in the other players turn.  A rule set that does not make leaders and heroes super powerful.  .....Oh wait, I have those rules, they are TACTICA by Arty Contliffe.

Erm, I think the way it works no is all units fight in 2 ranks.  Yes, just the ones touching. However, if your unit is at lease 10 men wide, you cound another ranks worth of troops to fight.

So, if your chaos lord on foot is attacking my huge unit of goblins, Im going to have 3 gobbos in base contact. That would mean 3 in the front rank, 3 in the second rank and 3 more with my nice wide unit. Add in spears and thats quite a few attacks.

SOunds like a fun system. I actually quite like the way they change warhammer verey few years. Keep sit kind of fresh. I do wish all the army lists were in the same book though, updated all at the same time.

[Viper]

Well from my reading of the rules, no pictures to distract me in a shoddy black and white scanned copy of just the rules sections, it seems to be much of the usual EE.

By that I mean they fixed some stuff that needed fixed, broke some stuff that didn't need touched, and did a bit of both to some other things. This gets even worse when you include the new Errata/FAQs aswell.
 

All in all, much better than 7th ... but then that wasn't too difficult.

The really important thing though will be how the armybooks turn out, and if the creep continues.

[mweaver]

I picked up my copy last night.  I haven't had much time to read it, but I did read through the magic section, which has changed a fair amount.  I think I like those changes - looking forward to seeing how they play.

It is certainly a very pretty rulebook.