WHFB 8

[wolfgangbrooks]

I don't see any fewer minis used in there???

But do you see any more? The idea is to use fewer but larger units. Besides it encourages play that's closer to the game's background.

Love the mini's, but wow.

Every day I see new figures released at prices that meet or exceed GW prices and rarely ever see those companies get the same kind of crap GW does. Besides I wish gamers would stop whining about prices period, just budget your games and freaking live with it already.

[leadfool]

wolfgangbrooks,
I agree with Alfrik, GW figures are espensive.  While some figures are equally expensive to GW that does not mean GW figs are not expensive.  They more then anyone have the benefit of economy of scale and should have the cheapest figures.  Instead there are a number of companies that make very nice figures cheaper.

I know Alfrik, he has more figures then most, even more then me which is saying alot.  His home is a virtual shrine to Wargaming.   His concern about cost is not so much for himself, but for others. 

[joroas]

Well, bought the rules.  I already have 3 armies, I do not expect to buy more figures, may have to put a few proxies in some middle ranks and double up some units.  Did not buy any of the new fluff when Dark Elves was released last year. Mantic are busy pushing their ranges and there are any number of alternatives, for Empire buy warlord's ECW, Bretonnians equals 100 Years War.

[OSHIROmodels]

Well, bought the rules. 

I knew you'd cave 

It's pretty isn't it 

cheers

James

[wolfgangbrooks]

"His concern about cost is not so much for himself, but for others. "

To start with, I only have your word for that. Not saying necessarily he's a cheap bastard, but that vein pulses thick in wargamers and I find the constant whinging more than annoying.

Second, figures are underpriced. You just have to be on the selling side to know that the margin between a manufacturer's costs and what people in this hobby expect to pay is incredibly slim. This has all kinds of ramifications, usually being that the people who want to turn their hobby into a business and do all kinds of cool things with it simply can't make a go of it because they can't make expenses AND expand. This is a topic that probably deserves a big ol' thread on it's own. But I swear if someone tries to trot out that old internet chestnut about "If they really love the hobby then they shouldn't care about money and just be happy someone's enjoying their stuff" I will find a way to reach into the internet and punch them. You wouldn't let someone shortchange you for the labor you do at your job right?

Third GW does alot with the money; supporting a magazine (And complain all you want about how it's not giving you free army lists every issue like it used to or whatever your beef with White Dwarf is, it's miles better than most wargaming mags I've read.), customer support center, warehouse, manufacturing complex, dozens of stores, and even a experimental design division! Who else does that? Their next biggest competitor in miniature gaming doesn't even come close.

How many careers have they started that are now huge influences on the industry just because they had the money to spread the net wide and support all kinds of talent ? It seems like the people behind half the companies that are huge right now are GW alumni.

You're not going to be able to do that only charging $2 USD a figure when it's costing you half that to make the figure.

[Alfrik]

My observation that the current price of Heroic figures, not their rank and file, is very Steep is based on buying their products for over 20 years.

Just for the record, I have 4 separate and complete chaos armies, skaven, dark dwarf and most of a slann army as well as epic armies for marines, orcs and eldar with titans, plus a 40k orc army over 150 figures with special characters etc. I also have 4 different rule sets, a pile of white dwarf issues, 5 Blood Bowel teams, 2 Man-o-war fleets and rules plus 3 sets of mighty empires sets. Not to count the box full of left over figs and bits of GW products, plastics and what have you, which does not include any of the masses of ancients armies for WRG, FR! etc etc etc that have nothing to do with GW products, just that I am diversified now.

So having supported them for so long, I now find little in their product line that I don't have earlier versions that tempts me to purchase do to their totally free to price prices.

Just my 2 cents.

[wolfgangbrooks]

My observation that the current price of Heroic figures, not their rank and file, is very Steep is based on buying their products for over 20 years.

I don't see how that's exactly relevant. You've been buying their stuff a long time, good for you. Alot has changed in the last  couple of decades and their cost for producing those highly detailed metal characters is now very different than their costs for rank and file troopers.

In fact in a couple of years the way they are going the metal casting line will be doing only characters and special projects. A specialist industrial line working exclusively on relatively small-run products will get a little expensive. And again, compare their products to other manufacturer's of comparable size, style, and quality and their characters are still competitively priced.

[rob_the_robgoblin]

Guys this is quickly spiralling out of control.

I'm more interested in seeing what people ARE doing rather than what people ARE NOT.

I don't go into other areas and post 'that game sucks', I just don't post.

[joroas]

I only ordered yesterday, so won't hold it for a few days, the 11% discount from Maelstrom was too tempting.


GW sales are higher than you think, if you take in the other companies that sell their stuff, especially at a discount.  Like Alfrik I have nearly all of their games, I have, unlike wolfgangbrooks noticed their figures rocketing.  This is not a small company with a small output that sells low numbers, the overall feel of the market, including plastics, is a general fall in prices.

[leadfool]

Yeah Rob alderman is right, we are talking about the rules not the price of figs.  

I too own a huge empire army and will have no problem fielding large units.  

So educate me/us.  What is the advantage of a Horde unit?  
What about a 10 figure wide unit.  Will all the figs in the front row get to fight?
What is the step up rule, will a unit get to fight even if its front rank gets killed?
Those changes would go along way to fixing some of my concerns about prior sets.
Is there a counter charge or some other charge rule?
Do we use the same army books but with the new limits until the new lists come out?

[Erny]

When GW bring out a set of rules it is a fair point to discuss the cost and if it is worth it no? I don't dislike GW at all, I still collect loads of their stuff (off ebay) these days though I get considerably less bang from my buck if I buy new stuff. Alfrik is merely making the point that you get a lot less value for your money these days and that would include considerations of inflation.

Oh and wolfgangbrooks, plenty of people do make a go of it with their own figure lines and products. Just look at  Ramshackle Games, Otherworld, ebob, redbox, TooFatLardies, SoBH oh the list is endless new successful companies start all the time. If you fail because you cannot meet your customers expectations then that is capitalism working for you, gamers don't owe any manufacturer a living.

I'll probably get sucked into buying this in a year or so's time. I look forward to hearing if this is truly different.

[Argonor]

But do you see any more? The idea is to use fewer but larger units. Besides it encourages play that's closer to the game's background.

What I meant was, I do not see fewer minis used to make a unit; I don't see a point in making 'unit fillers' that take away 4 standard minis, but use 4 minis from another sets (including the even more expensive metal ones). No point at all. Besides that it makes the units even expensiver to field, another 'clever' ploy.

As to the 'fewer, but larger units': Yay, even less tactics! Why even bother playing the game if it creeps towards just having 2 or 3 large blocks of minis that are essentially just there to allow for fielding a handful of extremely powerful characters???

I like wargames where the troops, and how you maneouvre them around, actually have an influence on the outcome.

I cannot grasp why so many gamers WILL not see that GW rulesets are not intended to make gaming enjoyable for their customers (GW closing down their official forum because too many of their core customers were complaining about the rules is a sterling example of this), but only a means to make people buy more of their miniatures - that are priced, not according to cost, but according to a fictive value determined by their ponts cost in the game.

I do not say it is wrong of them from a business perspective, as long as they can find people... erm... willing to pay.

I keep hearing the argument, that other companies also sell expensive minis. Yes they do. And often get penalized to do so (see Rackham, Heartbreaker, and undoubtedly others for reference).

Small companies like Hasslefree and other small independent make extremely high quality minis, probably more or less on demand, and do not have the returns to scale of a manufacturing giant like GW, thus they have to charge prices that border on GW prices.

GW should be able to make plastics at the same prices that others do. Still when someone new comes to the market with prices 1/4 or less, but maybe a slightly lower degree of quality, they are subject of public lynching, even if they produce exactly what the customers demand.

And I resent being accused of giving someone 'crap'. My opinions are formed on many years of experience, including having been manager of a games store in the 90's (not owned by me) where I had access to the annual reports of GW, as well as on my knowledge of business economics and marketing (in which I hold a Master's degree with a major in Marketing).

And this DOES have something to do with the rules.

[Argonor]

And again, compare their products to other manufacturer's of comparable size, style, and quality and their characters are still competitively priced.

I'd like to see some examples of that??

[wolfgangbrooks]

"What is the advantage of a Horde unit? What about a 10 figure wide unit.  Will all the figs in the front row get to fight?"

The main one is that units get to fight with an extra rank. So a unit with spears will get to fight three ranks deep. And I think monsters get to fight from the second row with up to 3 attacks even without using the horde rules.

"What is the step up rule, will a unit get to fight even if its front rank gets killed?"

Yes, all casualties are now taken from the back of the unit. So everyone in the front rank gets to fight.

"Is there a counter charge or some other charge rule?"

Only stand and shoot, hold, and flee. And if multiple units charge you can announce which reaction you're doing to which.

"Do we use the same army books but with the new limits until the new lists come out?"

As I understand it, yes. There are faqs for the army books in the new edition on the GW website. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&start=2

If you fail because you cannot meet your customers expectations then that is capitalism working for you, gamers don't owe any manufacturer a living.

And manufacturers don't owe gamer's anything either. Your point? And for every example you mention I can think of several that fail or stagnate and most people are only able to do it as a sideline. Usually one that gives back very little. If capitalism was as cut and dried as you seem to think it is those people would be doing alot better. However it has less to do with what they can offer and more the whims and fads of the consumer base.

I'd like to see some examples of that??

You want the long list or the short list? Probably the best example is Privateer Press since they use practically the same business model as GW, on a model per model basis they are more expensive. Remember the Vampire Counts calvary boxed set that everyone was having fits over because it was $90 USD for five character level models? PP's basic cavalry is $20 a figure. And that's not the only example of course.

Gamezone miniatures is another good one since they basically are the Spanish GW model for model. Look them up sometime. How about Merc Minis? $10 USD for each rank and file. Corvus Belli Infinity is another good one: $12-20 USD average for heavy weapons figs and characters. The previously mention Red Box Games is about $10 a figure for unit champion level figures. I can go on.

Also I'm not going to argue rules with you since you seem dead set against allowing that any set of rules GW makes could make is anything other than a conspiracy against wallets.

"I keep hearing the argument, that other companies also sell expensive minis. Yes they do. And often get penalized to do so "

My argument is that they catch more flak for it than anyone else. As for Rackham; It's my understanding that most complaints against them are that they dropped their metal line. Which was more expensive per figure than their new prepaints.

"Still when someone new comes to the market with prices 1/4 or less, but maybe a slightly lower degree of quality, they are subject of public lynching, even if they produce exactly what the customers demand."

Quite the opposite in my experience, unless you're talking about these boards in which case I think it was a bias against an American company back when the board was mostly Brits and Germans. All I've heard from customers who look at the plastics is praise for the sculpting. However, most of our customers seem to prefer single part metal models for ease of assembly.

"And I resent being accused of giving someone 'crap'. My opinions are formed on many years of experience,"

So are mine. I used to be an innocent until we started the business... at least it's not quite as bad as regular retail.

[Erny]

And manufacturers don't owe gamer's anything either. Your point? And for every example you mention I can think of several that fail or stagnate and most people are only able to do it as a sideline. Usually one that gives back very little. If capitalism was as cut and dried as you seem to think it is those people would be doing alot better. However it has less to do with what they can offer and more the whims and fads of the consumer base.

Umm yes, yes they do  . You  owe them your livelihood for example....

If you want to make money you give the consumer exactly what they want. If you have started and failed in this business, with that attitude, it's no wonder you sound so bitter. If your product is good, your price fair and you meet customer expectations you'll do very well, many small companies prove this every day. If your a new company with no name, exceeding expectations is probably a good thing.

GW do this, they can get away with charging what would be way too much for a relatively poor product because they offer other things than just the mini and rules to their market. The main thing being accessibility, brand recognition and market saturation. Without this they wouldn't get away with selling what they do now for the price they charge. As it is most people I know who buy do so heavily discounted in, "Sales", online.