FOW/Wargames Illustrated brown Panzers?

[Danrit]

Has anyone seen the latest edition of WI? The early war FOW Panzers are painted in panzer grey with brown patches. I heard about this colour scheme once before but have never seen any evidence or colour photos from the period. Where has this come from? Do I need to repaint all my Panzers in a colour scheme that is frankly horrible?

[joroas]

No reason why they can't just be factory grey, or factory sand later on.  Your troops.... your research.  You don't have to copy FOW's slant.  Personally, grey is fine for early war, and quick to drybrush......... 

[Bungle]

depends on how early and location in the world

[David]

Don't worry about the funny colour the have there tanks painted, they come from a far far away place on the other side of the world, and the french and british Tanks colour are not quite right?
So far in my 30 years of wargaming i have never seen early german tanks in any colour but Grey
I have seen different colours for there uniforms for early war.
Even there list get put down by some of the true WW2 players in my club.
The main point with FOW is it a fun quick game for club night and the models are fun to paint.
True to histroy 
The main problem with FOW is the GW way of changing the lists so you have to buy some more model to have the correct army

[Arlequín]

I'm afraid Battlefront have it right... The single colour scheme didn't come into use until after the battle of France.

The commonly held view is:-

Panzer Colours 1934-1945

However:-

Panzer facts #4

German Tank Colours

Given that I doubt quartermasters would be in a hurry to issue paint, you might have some older vehicles sporting the pre-1939 three colour camouflage.

*Edited as I didn't point out that the first article is apparently inaccurate*

[Calimero]

yeah but... "In late 1939, OKH decided to use only the dark (panzer) grey (RAL 7021) and by mid 1940, it was the only colour used, as it was factory applied."

With the war starting September 1st 1939 and the France campaign in May-June 1940, I think you can get away with plain grey if you want too.

[Arlequín]

Sure, you can paint them any colour you like. 'Factory applied' means new vehicles though, the ones in the field would retain their original two-tone paint jobs. Unless of course the halt before Dunkirk was to repaint their vehicles 

The single colour was brought in to save paint, which would be a bit pointless if they went and had all their existing vehicles repainted. I strongly suspect that you would find a few older vehicles (Trucks, Panzer Is etc), in the three colour scheme, most in the two colour scheme, and new vehicles and those replacing losses in Poland the single colour. The older the unit, the more diverse the paint schemes in use. While those who had suffered heavily before the French campaign would have a comparatively narrow divergence of schemes.

This is a Panzer III in France in 1940, if you look at the turret side, you can see the colour divergence of the two-tone scheme, and the same on the front glacis of the vehicle rear of shot, so almost a year after the change it was still in use.

[Doc Twilight]

Jim -

I generally agree with what you're saying, but I could swear that I've seen images of the small number of Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs that rolled into Poland painted in a strictly all over grey. Could be wrong, and I'd be interested in your take.

-Alex

[Rich J]

I'd imagine in BW photos with the tank covered in grime/dust the multi colour pattern could well look like all over grey like it does in a lot of photos of them going into Poland. Also what I have often found is very few of the shots or even film are actually 'real time' and are posed propaganda stuff done a while later etc.

[David]

PzKpfw I entered service in 1934 and first tanks were painted in Reichswehr camouflage scheme from 1922 that consistedof dark grey, dark green and dark brown matte colours. The scheme was applied to the entire vehicle in a formof cloud like patches or large irregular patches. Since the beginning, interiors of all enclosed armoured vehicleswere painted in light cream or ivory colour (RAL 1001). In 1935, PzKpfw II entered service and in the same year,OKH ordered to use new colours including dark grey and dark brown/green. Dark grey was used to cover 75% of thevehicle while dark brown/green covered the rest. New colours were also applied in a form of cloud like patchesor large irregular patches. Both colours were much darker than previously used ones and very well blended withsurroundings when covered by some dust and dirt. In 1937, small number of PzKpfw III and PzKpfw IV tanks entered servicebut it was not until mid 1940 that they were in service in significant numbers. In late 1939, OKH decided to useonly the dark (panzer) grey (RAL 7021) and by mid 1940, it was the only colour used, as it was factory applied.
The pictures in WI show more than 25% Brown on the german tanks ? and the brown seen to be to light?

here a link to colour pictures
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=German+Tank+Colours&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ACAW_enGB353&prmd=iv&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=Vu9LTLuFCJ360wS4o_yECw&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=8&ved=0CDsQqwQwBw&cts=1280045354513

http://stugiii.com/germanvehiclecamouflage.html

http://www.miniatures.de/colour-ral-farben.html

I have colour pictures of german tanks in france and poland in Gray ?

British Tanks
Home Forces: 1939 Three Colour Disruptive Pattern
B.S. Designation Official Shade Note Humbrol No.
Light Green No.22 B.S.381-1930 Lighter Disruptive Pattern 80
Middle Bronze Green No.23 B.S.381-1930 Base Colour 30
Dark Green No.24 B.S.381-1930 Darker Disruptive Pattern 75
Most vehicles were in the three colour disruptive pattern or in a two colour disruptive pattern using only dark green patches over the bronze green base colour. Photographic evidence suggests that some light tanks in the cavalry/recce regiments were painted in a two colour pattern using light green disruptive patches on the bronze green base colour.
France (BEF): 1939 Three Colour Disruptive Pattern
B.S. Designation Official Shade Note Humbrol No.
Khaki Green No.3 B.S.381-1939 formerly No.23 30
Dark Green No.4 B.S.381-1939 formerly No.24 75
Light Green No.5 B.S.381-1939 formerly No.22 80
The only difference between the 1939 and 1940 vehicle patterns is that the B.S. shade numbers were changed. Vehicles without disruptive patters would be painted in the base colour only. Three colour and two colour patterns existed, as noted above.

France
http://france1940.free.fr/armee/colours.html

I will stick to Gray  so i can use them up to 1942

[joroas]

This is the beauty of the German army, you can have generic troops for a lot of the war.

[Arlequín]

Jim -

I generally agree with what you're saying, but I could swear that I've seen images of the small number of Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs that rolled into Poland painted in a strictly all over grey. Could be wrong, and I'd be interested in your take.

-Alex

Doc,

You don't even have to agree, I've been married so I'm used to being told I'm wrong and to accept it with good grace. 

I'm by no means an expert on this and I've always assumed that German vehicles prior to 1943 were single tone Panzer Grey (and you can debate what that is apparently), but the documentary evidence to the contrary seems overwhelming compared to "we've always painted them that way" and "they look grey on this b&w photo".

The main problem with photos is that most the shots were in black and white and the two colours are so close in tone as to not show up well against each other, especially when you factor in light reflection and a coat of dust. Apparently if the vehicles were painted pink they'd look exactly the same in a b&w photo. The only reason it shows up at all on the photo I posted is because of the rain that's washed away the dust and that the photographer has taken a close shot. With the exception of the photo I posted, almost all the pics of German early-war armour do appear to be a single colour. On some you 'appear' to see the occasional wavy line which could be a trick of the light, or an imperfection in the photo itself, or indeed once you are looking for them they appear.  

I'm not a photographer, so I'll take all that under advisement. I suspect that the photo was actually taken in Norway as the campaign in France and the Low Countries didn't get under way until 10th May (it was also posted as 'Greece 1941', despite the date on the picture!).

The second and third of the three links I posted lists the orders and dates of the relevant changes in colour scheme. What surprised me was that no vehicle was painted grey at all prior to mid 1937, according to the documentary evidence. However the tanks that went to Spain in 1936 were nicknamed 'Negrillos', which has been taken literally to imply that they were a very dark grey, instead of its use as a slang term for 'pygmy' (to be polite). There's a presumption that once the Nationalists had them they changed the colour scheme to a three tone pattern, which is identical to the recorded as used by Germany prior to 1938.

I suspect that they were 3-tone all along and 'Negrillo' (a Republican nickname after all) just a disparaging reference to their size. It seem a bit perverse that the German's own vehicles were 3-tone, but were painted grey to be sent to Spain and then the Spanish painted them 3-tone when the Germans changed to a two colour pattern.    It seems logical to assume that the vehicles went to Spain they were in whatever pattern they had been in the German Army, so the Grey/Brown camo would be on later and not earlier vehicles.

There is something very German-like (no offence guys) in the idea of drab legions of uniformly painted Panzers rolling across the table, that appeals in the "We're the bad guys" sort of way, which doesn't appear to stand up to scrutiny. I've always been trained to go to documents when researching, so I'm very biased towards the guys who've gone to the written orders for their evidence. Photos help, but they can't always be fixed to a specific point in time, which appears to be very important in this context. The orders for just grey appear to have been dated either mid 1939, or mid 1940 (which is quite a translation error tbh), which either gives you almost all vehicles in the French Campaign in two-tone camo, or most but not all. Certainly from the end of the French Campaign there seems to be a programme of re-painting for all vehicles in a single colour when it came time for their periodical re-painting.    

Having not seen the documents myself, or having any idea of the skills of the folk examining them, I'll assume that there's an argument either way for painting your German kit just grey or grey/brown for Poland and/or France. I certainly won't be mentioning it at any shows I go to.  

[Arlequín]

PzKpfw I entered service in 1934 and first tanks were painted in Reichswehr camouflage scheme from 1922 that consistedof dark grey, dark green and dark brown matte colours. The scheme was applied to the entire vehicle in a form of cloud like patches or large irregular patches.

The 1922 scheme was Nr.17 Erdgelb-matt, Nr.18 Braun-matt and Nr.28 Grün-matt. With or without black bordering to each colour (a bit like the French type). 'Dunkelgrau' apparently doesn't get mentioned until 1937.
 

The pictures in WI show more than 25% Brown on the german tanks ? and the brown seen to be to light?

This seems to be the case, I would think that such an obvious shade difference would really stand out on a b&w photo.

[Blackwolf]

Excellent posts.It is interesting to note how 'shiny' early war Panzers were. I assume this was because the paint mixes had more varnish in them than latter on? Was this on purpose? One would assume that a more matte finish would reflect less light and be more tactical,however it was probably  an economy measure.

[Keith]

It is interesting to note how 'shiny' early war Panzers were.

Rain 

As a rule of thumb, two-tone grey/brown covers up until (and including) the invasion of France, and just grey is good for early Barbarossa etc..

And yes, the new FOW model pictures have the brown far too light (IMO). Tonally the brown and grey should be very close. I'd always go with Jentz for reference - he makes a point of referencing original documents for his work (and pre and early war German documentation was very good).

http://www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm

My take - SCW era tank but same colours. Bear in mind that '40s film handled reds very differently to modern media so the difference is even less obvious: