FOW/Wargames Illustrated brown Panzers?

[Keith]

Actually, to be fair, I've just looked back at the new FOW army deal box sets, and the brown on those pictures looks pretty good. 

[David]

I can see why there is such a problem with this colour
Here is some colour pictures before the war which show the problem where the brown blend in with the gray, which is ture colour of the time
Here are some color photos from the Life archive now hosted by Google.  4 were taken during a parade for Hitler's 50th birthday on April 20, 1939.

*Edited by moderator*

[Arlequín]

Sorry David, I've had to remove the links as they direct to images featuring insignia forbidden under German law. As this forum is hosted in Germany, I've no choice in the matter, which is a shame as they were excellent pictures. Please refer to the Forum Rules for clarification on this matter, or the sticky 'Symbol Use Rule' on this board.

If it's any consolation, I've done it myself once or twice. 

[David]

Sorry i am in the UK, don't have that law, so i won't be able to put a picture of a German tank with a Flag on it?
it been around before german used it? japan and greece. read the rules, sorry not a lawer, but it seem a bit over the top.
so what other things are we not to do under German law on this site?
Shame it show the tank colour quite well.

[joroas]

THIS SECTION IS VERY IMPORTANT SINCE IT RELATES TO SERIOUS LEGAL REPERCUSSIONS WHICH MIGHT AFFECT THE EXISTENCE OF THE LAF. PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY, ESPECIALLY THOSE USERS WHO ARE NOT FROM GERMANY – U.S. AND U.K. USERS TAKE SPECIAL NOTICE, SINCE YOUR LEGAL SITUATION IS MARKEDLY DIFFERENT.

YOU MAY NOT POST ANY IMAGERY INCLUDING ANY NAZI SYMBOLS AND ANYTHING RELATED OR CLOSELY SIMILAR. “IN DUBIO PRO REO” IS A PROBLEMATIC CLAUSE WITH REFERENCE TO THIS TOPIC, AND THEREFORE WE MUST ENFORCE A “WHEN IN DOUBT, DON ‘T POST” POLICY CONCERNING ANY NAZI IMAGERY.

IF YOU ARE UNSURE IF AN IMAGE OF YOURS VIOLATES THE ABOVE RULING, PLEASE PM THE WEIRD WAR TWO BOARD MODERATOR (WESTFALIA CHRIS) FOR A DECISION. GENERALLY, IT IS SATISFACTORY TO BLOT OUT SWASTIKAS AND SS RUNES IN IMAGES, AND CAN BE DONE QUICKLY AND WITH GOOD VISUAL RESULTS.

[David]

Went back a deleted some links you missed on the first post with you know what. eg Flames of war site etc
will remember now to check before linking.
Thanks
David

[joroas]

Thanks, the German authorities are very hot on this, for obvious reasons.

[Danrit]

Thanks for the answers and the links. I guess the panzer grey image is far too enduring for me to have imagined anything else. I do have some pictures showing single tone panzers in Poland and France quite clearly so I'm gonna stick with that until a german tank veteran of 1939-1940 tells me otherwise!
Some of the French tanks in WI have paint schemes that were limited in their use. I guess it all depends on the source you choose, but luckily there is lots of photo and documentary evidence on French markings.

[Arlequín]

Went back a deleted some links you missed on the first post with you know what. eg Flames of war site etc
will remember now to check before linking.
Thanks
David

As I said, it's easy to forget when you live somewhere that doesn't have the same laws. Thanks for backtracking though, it is appreciated.

I usually download the image, edit it and then upload it to an online server to post here. Using the parade pics as an example, it would have been fine to white-out the centre of the flags displayed, or to crop off the area above the tanks. Perversely it would have been quite legal to leave AH in-shot AFAIK   

I feel I must make this point to everyone though that, technically we are all 'in' Germany with regard to this law (it does have a data transmission clause), and those of us in EU countries must also bear in mind that it is possible to get entangled in the legal process because of this. The rights and wrongs of the law are not up for debate and LAF has no leeway in this matter.

For the sake of a few minutes editing on MS Paint, or judicious cropping of pics, is it worth risking the future of LAF, or indeed any degree of personal inconvenience?

Thanks for the answers and the links. I guess the panzer grey image is far too enduring for me to have imagined anything else. I do have some pictures showing single tone panzers in Poland and France quite clearly so I'm gonna stick with that until a german tank veteran of 1939-1940 tells me otherwise!

It is certainly an enduring image, I'm guilty myself. If we're talking 15mm vehicles though and given the similarity of the colours themselves, I doubt that under a layer of road dust you'd be able to see them anyway.

I found this illustration of a Panzer I and reduced it to 1:100, the distinction between the colours is not that great and with some weathering I think it would be hard to tell.



The link for the full size pic is here.

[colin_baillie]

Hmmm. I've collected quite a lot stuff on early war and there's not a lot to suggest grey/brown colour schemes - but then all the pictures are black and white. What they have shown clearly is the national insignia crosses were NOT the same as those that the Flames of War tanks are being shown with. Poland should be a white solid cross, with the black inner cross being intoduced by 1940. Also WI is focusing on Rommel and the units he commanded. None of the FOW German tanks have the large red numbers on the turrets that made Rommels tanks unique. Maybe I'm just being picky but WI is supposed to be a leading historical wargames magazine.

[Danrit]

Good point about the red numbers, I forgot about those. I don't think you're being picky, some FOW players are just that-players. They rely on the FOW sourcebooks for info and I've seen their faces drop when they find out the facts.

[panzerfaust200]

sweet work on the PzI keith

i have seen the issue of WI and to be honest the ise of brown patches so uniformly over everything shows a remarkable bit of ignorance...

by the French campaign i'd expect to see some older tanks perhaps pootleing about in prewar cammo, but certainly not Pz38(t) which were in production for the germans once they annexed czechoslovakia were produced in (panzer) grey for the Germans... (and most pictures of german tanks after the start of 1940 show them all grey...)
i think its just another FOW blunder... 

(hetzers in the armylists for FJ's in Normandy anyone? )

rob 

[SBMiniaturesGuy]

This is a Panzer III in France in 1940, if you look at the turret side, you can see the colour divergence of the two-tone scheme, and the same on the front glacis of the vehicle rear of shot, so almost a year after the change it was still in use.

What is the person wearing at the rear of the Panzer?? It almost looks like a British style helmet with a feather or something and the caption on the image itself (image properties) says "pzdiv-2-greece-nz-soldier."

Is the guy a POW whose just hanging out on a panzer? And what's with the feathery thing on his head? Intriguing -- Greece is sort of the "forgotten Front" of the war, be interesting to do some games around that at some point.

[Arlequín]

What is the person wearing at the rear of the Panzer?? It almost looks like a British style helmet with a feather or something and the caption on the image itself (image properties) says "pzdiv-2-greece-nz-soldier."

Is the guy a POW whose just hanging out on a panzer? And what's with the feathery thing on his head? Intriguing -- Greece is sort of the "forgotten Front" of the war, be interesting to do some games around that at some point.

The photo is dated April 1940, so it's not Greece (it's not France, as I said before either). I believe it's in fact Norway. The guy on the back is a British soldier judging by the battledress and 1937 pouch under the greatcoat. The feathery thing is likely a handkerchief or piece of white cloth to show he's surrendered. Presumably the unhappy looking guy is getting a lift on his way back to the rear.

[Derek H]

There's a very good discussion of this on the AeroScale modellers forum

http://www.aeroscale.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=136749&ord=&page=1

After reading it and following some of the links I'm quite convinced re the brown and grey.  But quite unconvinced about the shades used in those WI pics.