What's the difference: Colonial Adventures v VSF v. SteamPunk v Gothic Horror v?

[The_Beast]

Due to a recent broil up, all very civil, as you'd expect in a Victorian setting,, the question of what is VSF versus what is SteamPunk seemed to almost devolve to 'I know it when I see it' kind of thing.

Having myself been accused, again most civilly, of wandering into fantasy when I'd suggested a faction in VSF of  'Dwarf Germans', I began to think this might be of interest to several forum worthies who might not frequent all the forums involved, and present this thread for your consideration.

Please give examples, and do think about how rigorous  you'd be: "I'd never have a hunt of vampires campaign. However, I'd allow Allan Quartermain one resurrection as an important plot device. But only one!"

Doug

[Mancha]

We've talked about this issue at least a couple times.  You might try a search.  I found the following couple of informative threads with my search, but yours might be more comprehensive:

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=16238.0

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=16612.0

[Will Bailie]

I'll bite.

Colonial adventures either really happened or could have happened.  No fantastic creatures unknown to science, no eldritch horrors, no bizarre steam-based technologies.  Spooky stuff with plausible explanations are ok (eg, the Ghost and the Darkness - scary lions, but still flesh and blood, not supernatural as it turned out).

Gothic Horror incorporates the 'unkown', and can include 'traditional' horror monsters such as Dracula, Frankenstein's monster, werewolves, Faerie and the like.  I don't see a point in excluding Cthulhu and its like (as long as the setting is appropriate, 19th century, could be extended up to 1914), but that's not a point I feel strongly on.

I don't distinguish between VSF and Steampunk, in keeping with my decision not to distinguish between trekkers and trekkies, or science fiction and speculative fiction.

And none of these definitions should stop anyone from mashing together any elements they want in order to make a good game (for example, the Vikings, Owlbears and Romans game on another thread).

[Froggy the Great]

For me, steampunk and VSF might look a lot alike, but it's a matter of the starting point. 
VSF starts with Colonial Adventures and adds weird victorian fictional science.  Steampunk takes just about anything, then adds rivets, goggles, top hats, and cogs.

[Will Bailie]

I also have no issues with rolling in Old West with Colonials, as it potentially covers the same period - if Flashman can participate (unwillingly, of course) in both the Indian Mutiny and the Little Bighorn, then why not our games as well!

[The_Beast]

We've talked about this issue at least a couple times.  You might try a search.  I found the following couple of informative threads with my search, but yours might be more comprehensive:

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=16238.0

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=16612.0

Good for pointing these out, but I think they may underline my contention that the discussions are 'parochial' to particular sections of the forum. I'm a bit disappointed 'Help! What is VSF?' didn't become a sticky, though. I know I've felt like I was fumbling a bit, as you can tell.

Mind you, I already have demonstrated that I don't think there's ANY hard and fast set of borders, more guidelines.

Doug

[Red Orc]

I'd allow Atlantis, Hollow Earths, Vampires and other Undead, Improbable Steam Contraptions, Alternative Histories (fictitious nations like Ruritania and Graustark, fictitious events like the Second American Civil War), Time Travellers (eg Dr Who) and other literary figures, both famous and infamous (Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty, General Melchett and Corpral Jones in their younger days), and I'd definitely allow German Dwarves in Stahlhelms and/or Pickelhaube.

But my VSF strays very easily into things others condemn as 'just Steampunk'. Personally, I'm not that interested in 'what would have happened at Rourke's Drift if the British had steam-tanks and brass robots'. I reckon the wackier the merrier, on the whole, I'd rather throw Martians, crystal technology, secret cults contacting Deep Ones, and airship-dogfights in a bold plot by the French to kidnap Queen Victoria and replace her with a clockwork replica/undead countess from before the Revolution, etc into the mix and see what happens.

[Christian]

For argument's sake...

Anything with the word "punk" attached must be some kind of reaction... I thought Steampunk was a reaction to Modernism. Therefore Modern conventions are rebelled against by people using low-tech equipment etc. It's a statement against progress.

Whereas VSF is moving towards Modernism, albeit in a purely fantastical way. It is a lot more optimistic, whereas Steampunk is pessimistic.

I know there will be exceptions. But as concepts, this is the difference between VSF and Steampunk.

For some guidance, I'd look at the literature and artwork of the time and then look around those works as to what was really happening.

[The_Beast]

For argument's sake...

Anything with the word "punk" attached must be some kind of reaction... I thought Steampunk was a reaction to Modernism. Therefore Modern conventions are rebelled against by people using low-tech equipment etc. It's a statement against progress.

Whereas VSF is moving towards Modernism, albeit in a purely fantastical way. It is a lot more optimistic, whereas Steampunk is pessimistic.

I know there will be exceptions. But as concepts, this is the difference between VSF and Steampunk.

For some guidance, I'd look at the literature and artwork of the time and then look around those works as to what was really happening.

Totally different take than I understood it, but I'm willing,, nay, demand,  to admit I knew I DON'T know.

My impression is that 'punk is seen as merely posturing,, at least by VSF cognoscenti, a thin veneer of Victorian over very modern sensibilities. Certains, this applies to a great deal of what I see as decried as SteamPunk.

VSF never impressed me as consciously moving to progress; rather, new tech applied to older problems in old ways. "This new walker can move faster than a horse.""We shall have to form them into their own units, lest they be slowed by cavalry when they charge."

I shall have to do some personal 'box' wrenching to add your points to my cogitation...

Good challenge to my thought, sirrah!

Doug

[Plynkes]

I don't see VSF as inherently optimistic in tone either. In fact I'm struggling to think of an H.G. Wells story that fits this idea. All the ones I've read seem to involve downer, or at least bitter-sweet endings, and the future doesn't look all that rosy in any of them.

[answer_is_42]

I don't see VSF as inherently optimistic in tone either. In fact I'm struggling to think of an H.G. Wells story that fits this idea. All the ones I've read seem to involve downer, or at least bitter-sweet endings, and the future doesn't look all that rosy in any of them.

Yes, Wells was a bit of a glass-half-empty chap. Try The New Accelerator.
VSF isn't optimistic per se, but it is usually filled with the excitement of discovery and exploration, which can be seen as positive.

As I've said before, VSF for me is the Science Fiction of the Victorian period (fused with the 'invasion literature' and adventure stories of the period), rather than Science Fiction in the Victorian period.

Really, it's all a lot more complicated than it should be. Each man must make up his own opinion. Just bear in mind that it is I who is right. 

[Red Orc]

I've heard a similar argument before, that VSF is Verne and Wells, and Steampunk is Steamboy and Philip Reeve - VSF refers to the actual literature produced in the Victorian era (whether in English or in French, naturelment), whereas Steampunk is the later stuff, inspired by VSF, set in a cod-Victorian world of impossible engineering, where everything is brass and crinolines, or as I've described it before 'rivets and whimsy'.

'Steampunk' is called Steampunk, as I understand it, because it's formed with reference to 'Cyberpunk', as a distinct sub-genre of science fiction (and also a related fashion movement amongst art-school students); in this case, science fiction that has a nod to the Victorian-era sci-fi pioneers, such as Wells and Verne, rather than being about computer hackers overdosing on speed while infiltrating the cyber-domains of big Japanese corporations.

Of course, none of us are actually gaming 'VSF' under this definition, we're all doing 'Steampunk', because we're not playing games from the Victorian era, just games inspired by a notion of it. We should probably change the name of the forum.

Or maybe stop worrying about nuances of definition.

[Dr. The Viking]

To me VSF is Prussians in white uniforms and unobtainium.




I also like the idea that someone posted earlier about VSF being people in the 1830/40's trying to imagine the future of the 1880's+.

[Fuzzywuzzieswiflasers]

Yes I agree that Steampunk is a throwback cousin to cyberpunk. Imagine William Gibson being born at the same time as Wells or Verne.

The "punk" part of the genre normally refers to a type of dystopian view of the future. When William Gibson wrote Neuromancer back in the eighties he viewed his future with drugs, bioimplants, virtual reality, artificial intelligence as a kind of nightmare world. Unfortunately for him a bunch of tech heads (cyber punks) in California thought it was cool and actually set out to try and create Gibson's nightmare future!

Steampunk is a dystopian future past.

VSF is deeply entrenched in the boundless enthusiasm of the late Victorian era when the world was opening up to the railway and steam ships. The time of the penny dailies described heroic feats of adventure and battles in places people could only dream of visiting. Gordon, Livingstone and others walked like giants on the world stage.

It was also when science and technology started to noticeably effect peoples lives and authors of the day like Wells, Verne, Conan Doyle etc. started to extrapolate these advances to their logical conclusions. I agree Wells was more pessimistic than Verne.

Personally I prefer VSF more than Steampunk. Also steampunk seems to fall into skirmish type gaming while with VSF I can have glorious epic battles with aeronef fleets or massed steam tank battles.

VSF can stretch into the Edwardian era culminating in WW1. After that I would call it the pulp period which then stretched to about 1950s.

cheers Fuzzy

[Christian]

Or maybe stop worrying about nuances of definition.

I don't know, RedOrc... I find the discussion riveting.