Trouble Coming up With Allied Weird War?

[The Hooded Claw]

Ever notice that it's a heck of a lot harder to come up with interesting Weird War stuff for the Allies.  With the notable exception of the Soviets there is a certain low-tech, corn-fed, riteousness that seems to preclude the Americans and Brits from engaging in anythgn truely bizarre.

Face it, when Hitler's boys show up with over-engineered death machines and undead ubersoldats and the arcane might of evil behind them.  It almost seems fitting.  Now, if Pattoned rolled up in a giant combat walker with the reanimated coprses of fresh-faced boys from Iowa and led by some ancient arcane object, you'd have to think twice.

Stallin can get away with that because well, he was not a very nice fellow either.  But I really doubt you are going to find too many people who would agree that British werewolves or genetic mutants make sense.

I think the key is that for the most part, the Wierd War stuff tends to mirror the heroic tradition.  The bad guys are by their nature BAD GUYS and so the good guys are expected to get buy with less trickery and wizbang and more guts ad glory.

Still, I must wonder if anyone else has run into this same problem when developing their Weird War game settings.  If so, any thoughts on how to get around this?  If not, what's your take?

[Poliorketes]

I always thought zombie hordes wouldn't be right for 3rd Reich. Werewolves, Vampires, Ubersoldaten, yes, but Zombies are mnore the russian way.

Just think of the real war:
The germans used high tech, the more complicated the more they loved it. A Tiger won't be enough to stop 10 T34? Build the King Tiger.
The Russians had sturdy, simple constructions produced in masses.
But unlike what Hollywood want's us to believe since the war the US weren't all elite. They did mass production, too. The Sherman was the least effective of the standard tanks in WW2, but as with the T34 it was available in large numbers. US products weren't high tech (nor low tech either), but had rather good quality and high production rates. For Weird War this leads to Cybernetics or Robots that aren't as sophisticated as their german equivalent, but available to every trooper.

[The Hooded Claw]

I have always wondered about Germans and Vampires.  I guess it all depends on the origins of the Vampire in the setting.  If you are talking about blood-mixing Vampires and such, that seems like something the WW2 Germans would want to avoid and with the Vampire beingsuch an Eastern Euorpean thing (popularly speaking) might even place Vampires as heroes of the Slavic people in a warpedsort of way.

As for zombies, they always seeed a natural for me.  I won't get into grizzly details, but leave it be said that my view of where the Germans would get their zombies wouldn't have them wearing German uniforms.

As to the point of the post though,

A few things I have envisioned for the allies include advanced optics and radar technologies and as you mentioned, lower-tech, but reliable and mass-producible weapons.  I can see US and British troops using energy weapons before I can see Germans doing it.

[KeyanSark]

As far as you get more into Weird War lore, the more you see that Allied Scientist were far behind their German counterparts. However, this must not be a problem for equipping them:

- Rocket Corps is the most common Weird War Allied Troop. Little to say

- Another usual plot is that the Allies got Alien technology from the incidence in Area 51 (this is Pulp, so it could happen, and happen earlier). So advanced walker and heavy weapons are on the way

- German scientist also fled Germany. Maybe they helped the Allies with reliable superweapons.

- If the bad guys have zombies, were-things and ubersoldiers, then the allies have... Super-heroes! Yes: Captain Liberty and other colourful subjects may be there to help. An aid from the Free People of Atlantis cannot be denied. An who knows what allies can wait in the frozen wastes of Nepal?

- And don't forget the Paranormal Corps. If the Axis has demons, the good guys have Constantines and similar...  :wink:

- Native Americans, French and UK guys and so on have their own creatures of Legend. These can also be summoned to the battlefield.

- And what about Sgt. Fury and his howling commandoes?? I prefer that the bad guys have a lot, a very great lot of superweapons and weirdesness so the small bunch of allied heroes win their salary with honour.  

[Westfalia Chris]

I´d agree with both the "reliable tech widely available" and the "energy weapons" thing - especially given the fact that Radar was initially a byproduct of the failed attempt to build a radiowave death ray.

That and democratic superheroes. :: Unless Wonder Woman manages to be captured and bound by Hitler using her own lasso. Again.

[Weird WWII]

Ever wonder why Superman couldn't just fly over to Berlin and beat the Hell outta the whole government.  Well being a comic book nut, especially war time books, I'll tell ya.  The Spear of Destiny.  It was written in the DC universe that because Hitler had possession of this relic that he had sway over any super-powered person within his real one they were discovered.  That's it, now you know.  Also Sup failed his eye chart test by accidentally reading the chart in the next room through the wall of his test room.  No lie, that was a 40's reason why he wasn't drafted in the army.

A few more war time comic facts
-In the DC universe the Unknown Solder infiltrates Hitler's bunker and kills him.
-In the Marvel universe the Human Torch and Toro attack and burn Hitler just outside of his bunker.
-Captain America is the only finished Super Solder but their where several tests that failed leaving the test subjects crazy, crippled and lots worst.
-The hero the Destroyer is a German who fought against the Nazis for the German people.
-Warrior Woman and Master Man were married by Hitler himself.
-Sgt. Rock was to die on the last day by the last bullet fired in the war.  That is until the new generation writer screwed that one up.
-Sgt. Fury injures his eye from shrapnel from a German grenade.
-All the Blackhawks make up citizen from German occupied countries.


Brian

[JollyBob]

That's some interesting stuff, Kampfgruppe Cottrell. I never knew that one about Sgt Rock. Quite poetic in it's way, but I would have been really mad if I read it. The man was indestructable for god's sake!  ::

[pnweerar]

Indeed, the allies didn't present anywhere near the depth of bizarreness that came out on the axis side.

For the US, as has been said already, all there is that's compelling are super heroes and rocketeers.

Walkers are a possibility, but they take away from the iconic heroism of a rocketeers, men in spandex, and sarges chewing on big fat cigars.

Use of alien weaponry is a nice one though. Who said the United Nations was limited to just terrestrial countries?

[JollyBob]

I agree that the Allies may have less scope than the Axis, but the US still has more than good old Blighty, that's for sure.

They can pitch their resources, finacial backing, huge reserves of manpower and relative security into the debvelopment of mass produced war-winning equipment for the average GI Joe.

What do we have? Some wild haired Barnes Wallis types in back rooms clobbering together Heath-Robinson type doohickeys that may or may not work, and the frankly unhinged bods of the Rifle Brigade, the LRDG and characters like Orde Wingate to put them to the test.

Makes for some interesting "secret weapon" scenarios though!  ::

[Skrapwelder]

I see Britain's defenses being more mystical than mechanical. What about having Baden-Powell, his life extended by magic, leading the British Paranormal service.

The Scouting service was simply a facade used to recruit young men and boys with the proper paranormal potential.

Maybe Baden Powell is actually Merlin, waiting for the right time to bring Arthur back from the dead to defend the realm.

[JollyBob]

Maybe Baden Powell is actually Merlin, waiting for the right time to bring Arthur back from the dead to defend the realm.

Nice idea.  

I guess we've got the legend about Drakes drum and a myriad of Black Shucks, bogles and piskies to fall back on too.

And of course, there's always a certain Mr. A. Crowley, head of the Ministry of Obfuscation and Illuminism to deal with.

[PeteMurray]

What do we have? Some wild haired Barnes Wallis types in back rooms clobbering together Heath-Robinson type doohickeys that may or may not work, and the frankly unhinged bods of the Rifle Brigade, the LRDG and characters like Orde Wingate to put them to the test.

Yes, but you see, those characters are classically British war stereotypes - the boffin, the slightly "gone native" commando, and the stiff-upper-lipped officer (preferably with one of those annoying pencil mustaches.)

The issue is that the American stereotypes are a lot more nebulous.

The one character that everyone seems to agree on is the cigar-chomping NCO with the hatchet-shaped chin and the 5 o'clock stubble at 7:30am. Otherwise, when I think about typical US characters, I tend to think about lots and lots AND LOTS of mass-produced gear and Glen Miller tunes.

The Captain America/Super Soldier stereotype works because it's an extension of the tough cigar-chomping NCO. He's just more so (though somewhere along the way he learns to shave, stop cursing, and quits smoking) How do you stereotype Henry J. Kaiser's shipyards, or Detroit turning out a new Sherman every twenty seconds? You don't. You build your characters on another angle.

In the US, there's this dramatic trope where the military acts as the Big Green Equalizer. A bunch of guys who don't like each other go through basic training together, their first battle together, their first losses together, and eventually learn to respect and admire each other. This means a lot of the drama between the squaddies is what forms the basis for the characters' motivations. Americans also seem to get portrayed as being more self-centered than soldiers from other countries. Could you imagine "Kelly's Heroes" being done with Brits or Germans as the main characters?

So the irony is that if you want to build a convincing US faction for the Weird War, you have to start with a group of soldiers from different parts of the US, then build up the squad as a squabbling family, and then you can slap almost any technology onto them. So here's a plan. I'm going to build up a squad of 5 US characters and then we'll put them in some different Weird War settings.

Captain Hollis: Graduate of Purdue University, was just starting off as a civil engineer when the war broke out. Quiet, unassuming, but clearly in charge. Tries not to give orders when he can ask instead.

Sergeant Brock: Been in this man's army since '38. Spends half his time fuming at the stupidity of high command, and the other half of the time fuming at the stupidity of the squad.

Private Boone: Country boy from Tennessee. Genial, easygoing, and constantly amazed at things like running water on post and C rations ("Gol dang! A whole meal in this here box! Who'da thunk it?").

Private Goldman: Bronx Jew, volunteered for the Army and then quickly learned that volunteers usually get the unpleasant jobs. Now trying very hard to not to get volunteered for anything. Not exactly a coward, but extremely attached to his own hide.

Private Murray: Squad coward/comic relief. Has elaborate superstitions to prevent his own untimely death, many of which annoy his fellow squaddies.

Let's try two settings now:

Setting 1: Super Science. The squad is from F Troop, 183rd Armored Infantry. Each member of the squad wears a power armor suit, slightly modified according to specialty. Captain Hollis' is a stock command suit with a couple of extra radios. He's named it "Susie's Suit" after his girl back home. Sgt. Brock's is a Mark I suit, officially obsolete, that he refuses to turn in. Though its appearance is patchwork, it is one of the best-maintained suits on the front. Pvt Boone is the squad marksman. His suit has a low ROF cannon in place of the machinegun. He's called his suit "Yeller" after his dog at home. Pvt Goldman has a stock infantry suit, and promises to get around to naming it someday. What he hasn't told anyone is that he's already named it "Golem," and that he's written the golem's chem on the inside of the helmet piece. Pvt Murray also has a stock suit, but one decorated with lucky horseshoes (some real, some painted), four-leaf clovers, and rabbit's feet. Furthermore, no one is allowed to touch the suit's left arm. It's just one of those superstitions of his.

Setting 2: Supernatural. The Squad is from the PSODC - the Paranormal, Supernatural, and Occult Defense Command. Each member of the squad was chosen for a different reason. Captain Hollis tested unusually high on the Army Battery for Resisting External Influence. Sgt. Brock seems to be so excessively pragmatic that the weird have no effect on him. Pvt Boone comes from a long line of snake-handling Baptist ministers, and whatever mysterious powers move him are deadly to the occult enemies. Pvt Goldman is a specialist in Kabbalistic Technology, which he tries very hard not to explain. Private Murray was placed by accident, and is now considerably freaked out by what he's seen. However, tests indicate that he is so neurotic that he won't actually go insane, and this is considered a good thing by the brass in PSODC.

If this seems excessively character-driven, it's because all good pulp starts with characters and then tells action-packed stories about them. Hope this helped.

[Hammers]

Americans also seem to get portrayed as being more self-centered than soldiers from other countries. Could you imagine "Kelly's Heroes" being done with Brits or Germans as the main characters?

Maybe I am missing your point but as a matter of fact I could. At least when it comes to the British Empire. The Germans seems to have been more effectively scared into conformism. Aforementioned LRPD and the Commandoes, SAS, SBS and whatever you called them got volunteers from all over the Empire and occupied Europe. I have read several books lately which brings up that the "united front" was a bit of a myth. It was quite common with conflict because of class, colonial antagonism towards the English, xenophobia, and racial prejudism. "Sword of Honor" by Evelyn Waugh, "Ginger, your barmy!" by David Lodge and the autobiography of Christopher Lee all have quite a lot to say about individual oportunism and survival in an Army/Airforce burdened by an military outlook from an bygone age.

[PeteMurray]

I have read several books lately which brings up that the "united front" was a bit of a myth. It was quite common with conflict because of class, colonial antagonism towards the English, xenophobia, and racial prejudism. "Sword of Honor" by Evelyn Waugh, "Ginger, your barmy!" by David Lodge and the autobiography of Christopher Lee all have quite a lot to say about individual oportunism and survival in an Army/Airforce burdened by an military outlook from an bygone age.

Fair enough. Certainly Kelly's Heroes has that level of cynicism. I was thinking more of the pulp characterization of Americans vs. Brits, which is based more on the myth than fact.

[The Hooded Claw]

Wow, what an awesome response.

For the most part my view on the allies has always been to keep them more along the lines of being character/personality driven rather than gimmicks.  As has been mentioned, in the Pulp settings, the allies tend to get buy on the merits of the men as much, if not more, than they do their technology.

So, I tend to go with super soldiers, hard as nails special squads, suped up detroit-built planes, British and Russian Mystics, etc.  

One pal of mine once discussed using American folk icons as heroes.  Imagine recruiting the likes of John Henry, Pacos Bill, Paul Bunyan, etc being recruited for the Allied cause?

In the US, there's this dramatic trope where the military acts as the Big Green Equalizer. A bunch of guys who don't like each other go through basic training together, their first battle together, their first losses together, and eventually learn to respect and admire each other. This means a lot of the drama between the squaddies is what forms the basis for the characters' motivations. Americans also seem to get portrayed as being more self-centered than soldiers from other countries.

I agree here, Pete.  This seems to have been taken to a great extreme with the comic, "Monster Squad" I think it was called, where you had all the classic Universal monsters and a few others assembled into a fighting force for the Allies.  I mean, we all know that Frakenstein's monster Dracula, and the Wolfman can't get along.

One angle that was discussed as well ws writing some sort of vampire rivalry on the Eastern Front with a fight developingb etween the iconic Nosferatu and Dracula-styled vamps.  The Nosferatu types being Germany's "native" stock while the Dracula-styled one reprise their lifetime roles as defending their eastern territories against foreign invasion.

Just a few thoughts and ideas,