Stargrunt II - Do YOU play it?

[ATP Painting Studio]

I have played Stargrunt II a few times, but love the rules immensely; indeed they are my set of choice for 25-30mm SF wargaming.

I would love to play more, but am limited by the fact that I don't often get to my club any more, and even then they refuse to play anything that isn't marked 'GW'. So I ask you - who here plays (or played) SGII? What do you like or dislike about it? Why is there so little on the internet supporting it - besides some old and non-maintained sites?

And, also, what does this sound like for a SG II platoon force:

HQ group:
LT, SNCO, trooper with grenade launcher, EW/C3 trooper
Hover jeep with LMG mount

Squad 1:
NCO with pistol, trooper with GMS/P, 4 troopers
Light armoured truck

Squad 2, 3 and 4 (as Squad 1)

Scout Squad:
4 troopers on hoverbikes

Powered Armour Squad:
SNCO with EW/C3 suite, AP weapons; trooper with MLRS boxes, two troopers with tribarrel SAWs and close combat 'fists'.
6x6 APC with tribarrel SAW

Armoured Support
Hover tank with high-powered cannon and tribarrel SAW.

[Froggy the Great]

I've played and enjoyed it, but not for about ten years.

[ATP Painting Studio]

Wow. A full decade! It's such a good game.

Any ideas on how I can encourage others at the club to try it out? I'm trying to construct two fairly even forces to take, so that I can entice others to have a go.

But that's a bit of a basic plan! Maybe I just need to set up my own club.

[number9]

I've played it on a regular basis in the last year. I can't say exactly what excited our group to get into it beyond their general willingness to try stuff that isn't releasing new editions every three to five years. Stargrunt II represented a set of rules that have endured without constant official updates and revisions. The core of its infantry combat rules remain fun, relatively straightforward to experienced gamers, and seem like a reasonable representation of platoon scale sci-fi conflict. We've played around with the FMA mechanics a lot to represent modern zombies, pulp, and a whole host of other things from units to individuals in 15mm and 28mm scales.

Here are the things I don't love about it:

Units getting suppressed to oblivion. Moderate to low quality units can be rendered entirely useless if they suffer a bit of bad luck and get stuck behind 2-3 suppression counters early in the game. No one likes to feel like their lovely miniatures have little recourse but to sit there and absorb focus fire all game, never moving, never recovering, until they eventually become casualties or break.

Vehicles are a bit all or nothing when it comes to effectiveness/damage. The rules for vehicles seem simplistic out of an admitted desire to keep the focus and potency of the rules on small infantry engagements; if you want to play armor, play Dirtside II. This is unfortunate because there are so many really really nice 15mm vehicle models out there begging to be used. In Stargrunt II one often gets the feeling that either their tank/buggy/hovercraft is either going to get totally blown up, or be totally fine, and most of the time, only be effective (or not at all) against other enemy vehicles or structures. 40k players are used to their vehicles meaning more in their games, and will chafe at the way they are somewhat disposably treated in Stargrunt II.

No overt structural equalizing mechanism between opposing players. I get it. Really, I get avoiding a point structure, and I believe in it for all the reasons Mr. Tuffley espouses in his rules. BUT. Modern players in shops and clubs that aren't best buddies can't abide very easily. They don't have a good reference for what is "fair", how to "build a force" and when they are overpowered or underpowered versus any given opponent. The only way this happens in Stargrunt II is by experience and willingness on the part of the players to properly adjust their expectations based on the scenario, or models/qualities/motivations available. I think it is really hard for younger players that cut their gaming teeth in the late nineties and beyond to adopt that mindset; to get away from "gaming the rules" and get on with "gaming the engagement/person". Sorry if that sounds too much like a get-off-my-lawn-you-punk-kids kind of comment, but it is what my experiences with this system have led me to.

Stargrunt I feel requires a strong hand leading it. It needs an experienced player setting up the balanced structure/limits in each game between people, at least until the point where the involved can show up and game it on their own and not feel like one side or the other got shafted because we had no idea off table artillery was so insane. Best recommendation I can provide is that if you want to be the architect of this system in your group, you have to build two opposing forces, a simple but interesting introductory scenario that shows off the merits of the mechanics, and pits players against each other in a fair way. Let people enjoy for free the fruits of your labors, and perhaps you'll win a convert or two.

[ATP Painting Studio]

Hmm, sounds like a plan.

I come from a background of games like Charge! and although I have played more 40K and Necromunda than any other system (with, perhaps, the exceptions of Bayonet & Ideology 1st Edition and some homegrown rules for 15mm ACW games), I remain more than capable of thinking "right, I have fifteen men, a damaged tank, and a powered armour soldier. Against this is a company of greenhorns. I must hold this bridge for 10 turns!" and then getting on with it.

I suppose I assume everyone else is like that too.

I will, I think, have a (re)read of Charles Grant's excellent Tabletop Teasers and consider which would make a good introduction to Stargrunt.

[Simlasa]

I love Stargrunt!
After I became disgruntled with GW (about mid-way through 40K 2nd) discovering GZG was a savior to my hobby interests. I've played quite a bit of it over the years with friends and it's still in my top 5 choices.
There's something about the tone of it... similar to how I feel about Traveller. A lot of it just feels right to me. Maybe I'm weird but I like that crappy units can be pinned down for an entire game and that it favors the no-points scenario type of game over the 'tournament' obsession with 'balance'. Same thing with armor being 'disposable' (vs. whatever they've become in 40K). I even like the chit-draw mechanic.
I'm not saying it's the bestest game that ever could be... but it really works for me.
We still play Rogue Trader once in a while, but Stargrunt got lots more table time until we started in with 5150... and now GRUNTZ. Small skirmish has taken over my gaming the past couple years (except for some crazy desire I have to play WFB 3rd).

As much as I like Stargrunt though I don't think it's ever going to be a popular flavor... it isn't 'cinematic' and shouldn't be played between random strangers... I'm tempted to say something silly, like that it's a more 'mature' game than a lot of what's hot at the shops.

[ATP Painting Studio]

I think it's wonderful for gaming small actions - no more than reinforced platoon - and on reflection I must agree that it works best with long-term gaming buddies; I genuinely can't see going up to people I barely know and saying "fancy a game of Stargrunt?" the same way I can in a GW shop or club with, say, Rapid Fire or what have you.

That said, I have had some thought and I reckon the 'Recon in Force' scenario from the SGII rulebook is a nice introductory one: there's no special stuff, both sides have a light infantry platoon on foot with no vehicles, and it's pretty balanced. About the only change I'd make is the bit where the players can remove three random counters from those deployed at the start.

[Splod]

SGII is one of my favourite systems ever, from the tactical gameplay through to the hard sci-fi setting. Since I've gotten distracted by Infinity and Hordes it hasn't seen as much play-time as I'd like, but it's still a fun game to rip out every now and then. I was introduced to it by one of the old hands who floats around my neck of the woods, with Full Thrust being one of the first departures from GW. Between him, his wife and his eldest son, there is plenty of scope for interesting games.
We've attempted a company level action with armoured support, and that game took the better part of a weekend and more beer than I care to admit The game could handle it, but it became very slow.

As for squad sizes, 5 is way too small in my experience. My regular oponent plays NSL with squads of 6, and at times even they can be too fragile and they have enclosed body armour. I play OUDF with sections 9 strong so a straight platoon on platoon engagement has him outnumbered and outgunned with each of my sections carrying an extra SAW and a number of snipers and IAVRs scattered across the platoon. Leads to some really interesting scenarios however... He's also got a platoon of Jagers to balance it out however.
We rarely play with attached armour, instead saving that for games of Dirtside... I find that armour is either devestating in the extreme or completely innefective, all comes down to chit-draws.

[ATP Painting Studio]

Mm, I think squads should really vary from 6 to 10 depending on quality; the poorer the quality the bigger the squad.

So Regular would be 8, Veteran 6, and Green 10.

Certainly that's how I've always played it, anyway; the smaller squads can be more vulnerable but usually make up for it through better quality.

Also you can be a swine and go for LOTS of four-man fireteams with two SAWs in, and IAVRs for everyone. But that's not really very sporting.

[Splod]

Also you can be a swine and go for LOTS of four-man fireteams with two SAWs in, and IAVRs for everyone. But that's not really very sporting.

Hence why I don't play this game with the usual 40k crowd, also why I've kept Tomorrow's War secret from them.

My OUDF squads are regular and set up as such:
Scout Group:
Section Commander - AR
2xScouts - AR
2xFire Groups
Gunner-SAW
2xGrunts - AR

Each squad will generally carry at least 3 IAVR, if not more... But I run them as light infantry so that makes sense in my mind. I've lugged 66mm and 84mm tubes all over the Australian outback when we haven't had the luxury of Rovers on exercise.
That build also means I can break them down into two fireteams for Tomorrow's War, each with a SAW and a couple of IAVR. The SECCO floats between whichever section needs him.
Depending on mission requirements, the #2 scout can carry a shotgun or the venerable 'Thumper' grenade launcher. It's also not uncommon for the scout section to be marksman qualified and act as a sniper team independant of the section. In this case the section will generally operate a 3 man Gun Group with the SEC-2iC and both SAWs while the SECCO forms a fireteam with the other 3 riflemen.

I've got pages and pages of TO&E I wrote up when I first started playing Stargrunt. I'd also just finished basic at the time, so my mind was flooded with section level tactics.

[Dentatus]

Loved it and used to play quite frequently years ago. These days it's generic rules like 5150 and a fast-play house system. 

[ATP Painting Studio]

Splod - yes, same (well, swap 'actual army' for 'cadets at school'  ), I found that it is a great tool for playing around with section/platoon level tactics and concepts. Tomorrow's War I see as very much a spiritual successor to SGII (as, I suspect, do the Tomorrow's War authors seeing as Jon Tuffley wrote the foreword!), and I am currently writing a shedload more TO&Es for both SGII and TW. I am ashamed to say that the Aus/NZ crowd are part of the Pan English Commonwealth in my setting though!

Dentatus - I've never tried 5150 (or the previously mentioned GRUNTZ for that matter), is it any good?

[Splod]

Heh, I just get carried away with my writing... I'd planned on a brief outline just to flesh out the TO&E of my forces and then before I knew it I'd written entire pams on OUDF contact drill for everything from light infantry tactics through to mechanised and air-cav ops. My favourite unit however is the 3rd Australian Regiment, they operate purely as mentioned above with the scouts detached as sniper teams... 4 man rifle group, 3 man gun group and a 2 man sniper team. A single section once took down an entire NSL platoon in an ambush. Mainly through some really unlucky chit pulls on the part of my opponent 
One thing I love about Stargrunt, and by extension Tomorrow's War, is that I'm able to apply the tactics I use in my job to the tabletop. The suppression rules are deemed somewhat extreme by many, but if you've ever been on the receiving end of incoming fire* you'll understand just how scary it can be.

*I'm yet to see live combat ops, but coming around a corner into the arc of an entrenched .50 was enough to scare the pants off me, and that was with them firing blanks.

[ATP Painting Studio]

I think that's what really attracts me to both systems; the sheer realism of it.

Well, as real as you can get with little metal and plastic figures fighting on Alpha Centauri in the year 2234, I mean. 

And suppression? Damn right it's potent, that's what gunfire does - suppress the enemy!

[Simlasa]

I've never tried 5150 (or the previously mentioned GRUNTZ for that matter), is it any good?

5150 has pretty solidly replaced our games of Necromunda. It's great for small skirmish setups like gang warfare and police vs. thugs. The main feature of note is its 'Reaction System' which takes a lot of control away from the players at times as combatants react to coming under fire or spotting the enemy. Great for solo play... but some folks don't like not being able to micromanage their forces. There's are new versions out that split the game into a bigger battles version (Star Army) and one that's dedicated to small fights with lots of story (New Beginnings)... borderline RPG like .45 Adventure/Fantastic Worlds.

GRUNTZ is something we've just started with, my first foray into 15mm. We've only had a few small practice games so far (with old Laserburn figs) but it's been lots of fun. It has a unit builder to let you use whatever forces/figures you like and definitely favors having mecha/AFVs/APCs/artillery in the game. At the moment I'd say it's midway between Stargrunt and 40K in its approach to military scifi. It has me pulling a lot of old figures out of storage... like all my old 1/87 Heavy Gear mechs.