Thoughts on Aztec suits

[whill4]

If I am not mistaken the Aztec eagle suit is only represented once or twice in the codices. It is brown. What do you guys think about the eagle suits showing up in other colors?

Four captive warriors were awarded a jaguar suit. Were four captive warriors and the jaguar society one and the same or two distinct groups?

Also, were eagle society and jaguar society warriors in equal numbers or is that just some sort of convention?

These are a few things I have been thinking about lately and was wondering what others thought.

[cdm]

The eagle suit appears often enough, and is always shown in natural colours. There is no textual or pictorial evidence I can recall in any of the 16th century documents of any other colour. IMO they should be depicted in genuine colours based on the Golden Eagle (Aquila Chrysaetos) but if you want to pick other eagles for some minor variety try mimicking the Bald Eagle (Haliaeetus Leucocephalus) and Solitary Eagle (Harpyhaliaetus solitarius), both native to central Mexico. I can't paint so I do some vaguely eagley colours

The suit configuration comes in several basic varieties based on original illustrations, just for fun This differences could easily be purely an artistic convention. The variations are: eagle claws to the suit at ankle height; an eagle tail hanging at butt level; a pair of wings at the rear of the suit. Clearly banners are an option for eagles and jaguar warriors based on illustrations. IIRC Foundry are best for a bit of suit variety with wings and claws.

Taking 4 captives with the 4th (or maybe just any of the 1st four) from the traditional flower wars opponents entitled/compelled? the taker to join the ranks of the tequihua (or valiant warriors). The exact English translation could be a bit fuzzy but it should do, it's the mental picture it's trying to impart that's important. For our purposes tequihua also = Eagle/jaguar.

Four captive nobles were award an eagle and/or jaguar suit made of feathers. If you're reading just jaguars, then your source hasn't read anything more than just Mendoza and the assumptions inherent with that list. There are many anomalies in that list which don't make sense compared to contemporary written sources. Non nobles were awarded a genuine jaguar skin outfit or one made of white (IIRC) chamois. (refer Duran - Book of the Gods for the finer detail). For the level of detail you are thinking of the society, I'll try and keep it simple. Let's just call them the Eagles as the eagle was dominant over the jaguar in philosophical terms but basically they formed a natural duality like the Tlacatecalt and Tlacochcalcatl, and you could swap the name eagle and jaguar at will for the purposes of our limited discussion. I would not be surprised if the jaguar was being devalued in societal terms by the conquest period, but it's a fuzzy point anyway.

The name of the society in most 16th century texts is simply eagle but there are enough times it is called the eagle/jaguars for it to be considered Eagles as an abbreviation. The Eagles may have enjoyed command roles of some form at this point and were assigned lands and commoners to support them and joined the ranks of military nobility, which had more prestige than just being born of a noble family. Eagles are 4+ captive warriors, after 4 it didn't matter how many they had captured unless they decided (or were told/voted/influenced/dreamed - the process is not clear though it did have personality issues attached to it) to leave the Eagles and join the Tlaotonxintli and go down the Otimi/Cuachiqueh route. How these two societies interacted is not really that clear but the Eagles were probably higher placed socially and ran their own little personal empires while the Tlaos had the inspiration/'cool' factor and of course did the warrior teaching. Some reading of Sahagun and Duran should start you contemplating about how these two operated in more detail within society, if you're prepared to look and think.

Eagles could go on to earn 2 types of distinction. The first is a sign of heroics, which was awarded after 10 (IIRC too lazy to go look it up) heroic deeds in combat and earned an eagle/quetzal feather bundle which was tied to the hair. If you look at the jaguar or coyote outfits in the Mendoza lists you can see this bundle on top of the helms. At 20+ (IIRC) heroic deeds they earned two such bundles. The tlacatecatl in the Mendoza list appears to wear one of these, they are also shown being worn in the judges list, indicating priestly warriors could also earn this.

The second distinction they could earn by being smart/wise and warrior like was an assumption of (higher?) command. Eagles could be promoted to Tlacatecatl to command formations in a more strategic way, of course usually/always? paired with a religious tlacochcalcatl, though the tlacatecatl appears to have had seniority. Pre Monty 2 and his bloodletting purge, this was open to anyone with merit, whether born noble or not. Post Monty 2 these were most likely hand picked pet monkeys who may also have had merit, but the merit pool was very selective to those of special breeding and affiliation.

Accounts from the siege of Tenochtitlan in Sahagun state a number of warrior names and the outfits they wore. If this very skewed evidence is taken as generic, it indicated a warrior could have an eagle AND a jaguar suit and could mix and match the two. IIRC the cases where the suits are mixed, the eagle helm is worn and the suit is jaguar.

For ratios of eagles vs jaguars I've ran several thoughts on this over the years, none with any great merit outside of personal opinion. I've gone back to the source books and tried reading various angles and thoughts, none of which bear much support, or reading between the lines support. If I had to go with something I guess I'd go for higher eagles based on general religious dominance, but with my buying habits they ended up roughly balanced anyway and I ended up pretending the duality eagle/jaguar line to roughly balance them.

I personally don't make formations of eagles/jaguars and separate formations of levy/state/whatever rules call them troops, then separate bows, then separate slings, then separate 1 captives, 2 captives, 3 captives, then separate religious 1 captives etc. I mix everything up and assign some arbitraryish ratios of warrior ranks in the mix based on how I read the society and its composition. I'm not going to argue heavily against anyone else who does otherwise.

There is distinct evidence for having both options of pure otomi/cuachiqueh formations or not having them at all and mixing them in with everyone else, depending on your army make up desire.

[whill4]

Thank you for the reply. I am going to run down web based or hard bound copy of Duran. I am also going to buy a copy of Hassig's book.

I think it would be interesting to consider that jaguar/eagles may be an officer training corp of sorts. The wash outs going on to be otomi and cuachiqueh. The sucessful ones moving on to higher ranks.

I don't believe it was uncommon in various indian tribes for males to ritually gather eagle feathers. Maybe the same thing is going on with the Aztecs. The 4 captive warrior had to go gather eagles feathers for a ritual and the feathers were used to make an eagle suit. This would fit with what you noted from Sahagun and that the eagle suit is not in the tribute lists. Just something to think about.

As far as my army organization I am making 24 casting units with half the unit being novices and 1 capture warriors. The balance will be various suit wears. Very similar to what you described doing.

[cdm]

Leave Hassig until later if you get interested in campaigning, you'd be better served and more informed by buying Foundry's book by Heath on the Armies of Central America or whatever it is called. This is the best factual primer around. Hassig won't answer your questions and once you read some of the detail from Duran, Sahagun etc you'll know more than Hassig. His information is at times decent, but at other times pretty flakey on detailed knowledge. For example he claims campaigning could only occur once a year during non planting season, but fails to admit the chinampa region that supplied the mass of food for the capital and high density areas was harvested twice a year and didn't have a non planting season. Once you read his detail you realise it's not as crash hot as expected. It is a decent book though if you use your eyes and pick through it.

Another example would be his claim bows were only used by commoners in war due to a reference in Torquemada (IIRC) which says that once a battle opened 'peons' fired their slings and bows and then assumes peons means the modern general context of the word rather than that used in the 16th century which referred to the general warrior - all of Cortes soldiers are also called peons when they were of varying social rank. He also fails to explain how this tallies with the account by Duran of noble novices being tested with slings and bows to see if they were good enough for a future war and who proved they were exceptionally skilled, along with the many other references to nobles with bows. I ended up writing a 30 page thesis on the use of bows by nobles, evidence abounds if one simply looks and I really wish he'd done more analysis of the military aspects of Aztec military life as he did with trying to sequence the campaigns. Don't take my word for it, I'm just some nut on a forum, go read for yourself

For Sahagun you'll need the Primeros Memoriales, available in English which gives a list of the suits/banners for the eagles and the 'nobles' as well as some of the volumes of the Florentine. There's lots of other good info in there if you dig. If you want to really delve you'll need all 12 volumes, if you want to get a decent level of knowledge grab just book 12-the conquest for the conquest info of course. Book 8-Kings and Lords (be aware when reading this is kings and LORDS) would be the second choice for detail info on the military makeup. Book 9-The Merchants is also useful

To a lesser extents books 1-3 dealing with religious aspects which involve some discussion of military information scattered throughout. Book 6-Rhetoric and Moral Philosophy has some good snippets. Book 10-The People has some snippets but not with enough detail you would want.

For the style of information you're interested in on the Eagles, buy Duran's book of the Gods rather than his history, it talks about the Eagles directly, then buy the History later for campaign information.

If you go for a few of these they'll set you back abit, but will be far more useful and genuine than buying any currently printed book on the Aztec military system.

**** I think it would be interesting to consider that jaguar/eagles may be an officer training corp of sorts. The wash outs going on to be otomi and cuachiqueh. The sucessful ones moving on to higher ranks.

Some of the Eagles had already been exposed to leadership well before qualifying to be an Eagle and training would have started for some during schooling. To move from Eagle to Tlacatecatl required 2 things - merit and the death or retirement of an existing Tlacatecatl. Having a father who was a prior Tlacatecatl was probably also a benefit. We know Tlacatecatls were killed in war often enough thanks to Duran mentioning the deaths of several huehue Tlacatecatls during Monty 2's reign. Aside from the leadership relationship between 3 captive warriors and lower ranks and the occasional Cuachiqueh to 3captive and lower ranks, and the Tlacatecatl/Tlacochcalcatl roles, we don't have any real evidence of any how command worked through groups of warriors or what Eagles may have done aside from some of them having some role in leadership.

It would have been interesting if anyone had recorded the roles and status of the hand picked nobles Monty 2 replaced the old calpulli heads with in his purges. I'd expect them to become Tlacatecatls/Tlacochcalcatls but it would have been nice to have some hard detail to better understand how calpulli leadership worked.

In no way at all could an otomi/cuachiqueh be called washed out. They were revered as warriors of excellence. They were also the trainers of the school age boys.

I've read all of the ceremonies and fine detail from all the English translations of Codexes and a decent amount of the Spanish only editions. I don't recall any mention of specific ceremonies relating to the ascension into the Eagle society except for a broad statement that they were awarded an eagle or jaguar suit. The suits did not belong to the warrior by the late Aztec era, being possessions of the State loaned to the warrior on the proviso they continue to function in a warriorly way or have rights to the warrior suit and associated civilian attire revoked. This is explained quite explicitly in relation to cuachiquehs as part of a discussion about them and cowardice in battle. This is the general statement. There is however an except, and that relates to the royal nobles (IIRC) who had their own suits based on their own motifs (I have a vague recollection this related to let's say something like the north American indians dream spirit thing) where the suit was their personal suit, and became a family heirloom passed from father to son. IIRC the owl suit of Ahuitzotl used briefly during the final siege of Tenochtitlan is an example.

One thing though which isn't spoken of much is the similarity to the scalping of the north American indians (sorry my indian knowledge is all movie based ) in that the warrior who took a captive cut a 'lock' of the hair of the captive before they were sacrificed. The hair was suspended on a 'pole' on the home of the captor and displayed with pride as their personal achievement there after.

I'm sorry if my text rambled I wrote this over several busy days. Happy researching

[Lowtardog]

Good to see you on the Aztec Trail Chronofus, how is your book developing as I found your research invaluable when dabbling in Aztecs.

I think from gaming point of view it is also very much dependant on the rules system you are going to use. I know when working with Ralph on lists for WAB to extrapolate the military organisation was a real headache and personally thoguh I enjoyed helping a little in disscussions I didnt find them the best in dealing with the warfare.

For my own units I mixed all ranks with novices and all levels worked into them tyring to apportion the ratio according to which Brrio they came from etc.

I did have separate Otomi and Cuachic units but thought these would be for specific tasks such as Shock troops or brigaded grenadiers etc.


For colour I did tend to use Egle suit wearers as leaders with banners though not exclusively.


I have or have tried to attach a draft set with a bit of background on how we tried to shoe horn Aztec martial structure into our games back in 2007 for a demo game, never finihsed and a lot of work was also put in by Neil Burt

[Axebreaker]

I'm far less the scholar when it comes to the Aztecs as compared to the gents above as I'm concerned more with their visual appeal then achieving absolute correctness. I went with a very natural brown with some white added as it "felt" right. I did use a red lining which I've seen on virtually every suit, but can't tell you why. Shields I went pretty bright and fancy to both give a contrast to the brown and show their elite status.
A fun army to paint when you want to add colour to your collection.

Christopher

[Bowman]

It's nice to see both Chronufus and Lowtardog on the same thread again. It's also reassuring that the problem of, "how to accurately represent Aztec warfare on the gaming table" has yet to be solved.  

Of course most of the Aztec lists floating around have each level of warrior fighting in their own unit, something that clearly never happened (Field of Glory and Clash of Empires being the biggest names). CDM's description is much more accurate but can only be "shoehorned" into a few current game mechanisms. Weighting each units abilities based on the ratio of warrior levels may work for Impetus (wish I liked that game) and maybe the DBX family.

I'm trying to get my old lists converted to Rob Brooms War and Conquest rules. A compromise between the two extremes noted above will probably work the best for that type of game.

I'm surprised CDM didn't comment on:

I think it would be interesting to consider that jaguar/eagles may be an officer training corp of sorts. The wash outs going on to be otomi and cuachiqueh. The sucessful ones moving on to higher ranks.

I think the current thinking is that exceptional warriors sometimes refused advancement into leadership positions to take the highly dangerous but more prestigious positions of otomitl and Cuachiqueh. I don't think you will find any author representing these warriors as wash outs.

CDM outlines the difficulty in arriving at a consensus at using the ethnographic histories as "gospel". The Biblical gospels even contradict each other, and the ethnohistories are no different. The sad fact is that the vast majority of Conquistadors were totally or functionally illiterate. Plus the Spanish had almost no interest in cultures different from themselves. They had no interest in the books, the culture, the arts, the philosophy and the military organization that they were so busy destroying. Thirdly, the writings, that are present, are used to "buff up" and explain the rationales behind each writer's deeds and behavior. And finally, none of the authors knew that their works would be read by military enthusiasts later on. The Spanish descriptions of battles, weaponry, armour, tactics and other such things is severely wanting. Just read the varying accounts of the Battle of Otumba to see how frustrating this all is. The only thing worse is having an interest in the Inca conquest. There, to a man, the Conquistadores are almost totally illiterate and we are stuck with an even bigger mountain of guess work and conjecture.

Ralph

[Lowtardog]

Good to see you on the forum here Ralph, My Aztecs were all sold off as were the conquistadors, Tarascans and Talaxcalan armies  . I still have a box full of Inca though flogged off the foundry ones

I have kept hold of the Portuguese and french forces along with the Tupi so havent given up all together.

I have continued to use TVG for the Tupi and it works quite well.

[whill4]

My thoughts concerning the officer training school was not to imply that the 4/5/6 capture warriors were failures because they have obviously proven themselves in combat but, that they were not suitable for high command.  I was just considering the possibility that this was a method of separating the sergeants and lieutenants from the colonels and generals in a manner of speaking. Anyway it was just something I was thinking about.

Any way on to more exciting things.  After some research I am fortunate enough to live close to the University of Texas Benson Latin American library. They have copies of the Primerios Memoriales, Codex Mendoza, and General History of the Things of New Spain. I see a field trip in my near future. Also, does anyone have any opinions concerning the works of Frances Berdan?

On the hobby side of things I will be building units of 24 castings. Twelve of the castings will represent 2 capture warriors and higher and the balance will be castings representing 1 capture warriors, novices, slingers and archers. I am also going to have a couple of elite units. I am not sure what I want to do for this yet. I am considering a unit of shorn ones and either a unit of priests or unit of eagle and jaguars. Not necessarily historically accurate but a combination of spectacle and what I want to paint.

[WuZhuiQiu]

I have continued to use TVG for the Tupi and it works quite well.

TVG?

[LeadAsbestos]

Not necessarily historically accurate but a combination of spectacle and what I want to paint.

Very much my own theory! I went ahead and bought wayyy to much, but I think i can make something striking out of the lot, and besides, I have no one to play anyway!

[cdm]

It is probable that some 5/7+ captive warriors were indeed command wise washed out Eagles. It would have been interesting to know in those circumstances were they were stripped of their Eagle lands and directly supported by the state, or some other method of supporting them was used. IIRC the comment was that only they received new grants and titles.

Don't panic too much  over your units In 28mm you can't even get real 0/1/2/3 captive warriors sculpted technically correct generally anyway. They're mostly adorned with inappropriate hair styles and clothing.

My Spanish are supported by a converted Lotr Mumak with a 1/72 Chinese junk ship castle with swivel guns on its back replacing the original multi level castle, and a unit of Eureka lancers mounted on the current edition GW lizardmen mounts. I want to do something Aztecy with triceratops and stegasaurus but I've found no ideas I like yet. Units of raptor handlers sounds good to me though

Frances Berdan is pretty good, early stuff less analytical, but got better with age. Frances and Patricia should revisit their Mendoza work again with the current state of knowledge. I've used some of the essays published in various compendiums for reference in buildings and religious ceremonies, some of which were very well written and researched.

Happy researching

[Bowman]

TVG?

This Very Ground. Published by Iron Ivan Games for the French and Indian wars specifically. I'm sure Karl "Lowtardog" has made some tweaks for the Tupi wars.

[Bowman]

On the hobby side of things I will be building units of 24 castings. Twelve of the castings will represent 2 capture warriors and higher and the balance will be castings representing 1 capture warriors, novices, slingers and archers.

That sounds like a good looking unit. For Skirmishers I would use slingers and archers with no armor.

I am also going to have a couple of elite units. I am not sure what I want to do for this yet. I am considering a unit of shorn ones and either a unit of priests or unit of eagle and jaguars. Not necessarily historically accurate but a combination of spectacle and what I want to paint.

CDM and I have argued this before. Some of the ethnohistories mention a "palace guard" or "bodyguard" unit, while others helpfully don't. If they actually existed, were they a type of praetorian guard, to guard the Huey Tlatoani? Would they take part in battle? Who knows? I'd surmise they would be hand picked, trustworthy, and ultra loyal Eagles and Jaguars, but that is a guess.

[Bowman]

Good to see you on the forum here Ralph, My Aztecs were all sold off as were the conquistadors, Tarascans and Talaxcalan armies  . I still have a box full of Inca though flogged off the foundry ones

I have kept hold of the Portuguese and french forces along with the Tupi so havent given up all together.

I have continued to use TVG for the Tupi and it works quite well.

Sorry to hear that. I could never sell my Aztecs, Tlaxcaltecs, Inca and Conquistadors. Here they are in action (sans Inca) at a large WAB game from Cold Wars 2010:

http://m833.photobucket.com/albums/JRRNEWS/Cold%20Wars%202010%20WAB%20Aztec%20Game/?src=www?pbauth=1_uLEBonVPfaLdh1h3YMYz2Tz5XKsbmIBiUvaBnKJIPPyl7p%2FscAJPVJ1V%2B720zKlEO8Lx3OQl0LM%2Bl1dyOWcyjF%2Fb2cBJsUj1nbvmMIbo9E3CsEfmu71jKTv%2FQZ%2B7yqIrI%2Bgk36ROXlNWevIj172SoOq4FaK9OgOTgxf5l0E%2F3yw%3D

I have even more to paint . And then I have to finish my Incas. And then get the lists up for War an Conquest. I've been totally derailed by a rather large WW1 infatuation.