Re: Manufacturers for 20mm Modern Miniatures.

[carlos marighela]

I'm not a scalist. Over the years I've played with everything from 1/300 to 28mm.  The beauty of 20mm is that there are loads more vehicles available and a marginally smaller footprint. I've got a fair number of the exquisite Tony Barton 20mm WW2 figures when they were cast by Eureka. That said I prefer 28mm for Modern because I'm not interested in fighting multi-battalion battles. And for those that I might, like Goose Green then one 28mm figure on a washer has about the same footprint as two 20mm figures based for my system of preference and one 28mm figure is actually cheaper than two 20mm.

 Most post -war campaigns revolve around the small scale actions. So I'm quite happy to play platoon scale games.

Now if there was a sculptor in 20mm who could match those at Eureka or Empress, I'd possibly think again but frankly there isn't. Elheim always look stiff and unnaturally posed to me and it doesn't help that they and the old SHQ range always seemed to use a painter who came from the 'skeletor' style of figure painting. It made everything look like zombified versions of Wilfred Bramble in Steptoe and Son. Wartime Miniatures look bloody dire to me and I'd consider Britannia only if I was intent on an army of ultra modern hobbits.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like 20mm but frankly most of the metal stuff out there isn't as good as the soft plastic from the likes of Italeri and Revell so I'll stick with 28mm.

[The Travelling Man]

Carlos- I wonder how long its been since you've taken a look at some Elhiem 'in the flesh'?  Matt has developed massively as a sculptor and his recent moderns work in particular is amazing.  In my opinion, his work is certainly as good as Eureka in 28mm (if not better) and I think even closing in on Tony Barton's work.  

Speaking of Tony Barton, have you seen Under Fire?  Certainly a 20mm version of Empress' lovely work.

[Arlequín]

Gents, I've split the topic to make it a discussion topic, the idea of the 'sticky' was for it to be a resource for those 'Where do I get xx from in 20mm?' type questions, like the corresponding 28mm one.



So... no spitting, gouging or head-butting in the clinches, shake hands, go to your corners and come out fighting...  

[carlos marighela]

"Carlos- I wonder how long its been since you've taken a look at some Elhiem 'in the flesh'?"

To be fair, quite some time. However a trip to their website doesn't really alter my opinion. Weapons look poorly sculpted, posing still stiff and rather angular. The only thing that seems to have improved is that they've sacked their painter.  Compared to the really natural posing you find with Eureka for me it's a case of chalk and cheese.

At the end of the day though it's a totally personal choice. If Elheim floats your boat that's fine by me, they just don't do it for me

I do like this set, it reminds me of Bill Bailey's collaboration with Kraftwerk to do a Kraftwerkesque version of the Hokey Cokey. 

[Brummie]

I'm not a scalist. Over the years I've played with everything from 1/300 to 28mm.  The beauty of 20mm is that there are loads more vehicles available and a marginally smaller footprint. I've got a fair number of the exquisite Tony Barton 20mm WW2 figures when they were cast by Eureka. That said I prefer 28mm for Modern because I'm not interested in fighting multi-battalion battles. And for those that I might, like Goose Green then one 28mm figure on a washer has about the same footprint as two 20mm figures based for my system of preference and one 28mm figure is actually cheaper than two 20mm.

 Most post -war campaigns revolve around the small scale actions. So I'm quite happy to play platoon scale games.

Now if there was a sculptor in 20mm who could match those at Eureka or Empress, I'd possibly think again but frankly there isn't. Elheim always look stiff and unnaturally posed to me and it doesn't help that they and the old SHQ range always seemed to use a painter who came from the 'skeletor' style of figure painting. It made everything look like zombified versions of Wilfred Bramble in Steptoe and Son. Wartime Miniatures look bloody dire to me and I'd consider Britannia only if I was intent on an army of ultra modern hobbits.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like 20mm but frankly most of the metal stuff out there isn't as good as the soft plastic from the likes of Italeri and Revell so I'll stick with 28mm.

First of I think its worth saying, that the bloke who sculpts the 28mm Modern Empress Miniatures, is the same bloke who sculpts Under Fire 20mm figures. They are exactly the same.

I'd also say that calling Elhiems stuff poor would have to be personal preference. I have a lot of it, and his stuff becomes more and more detailed each and every time. And basing its appearance on a close up picture of a 20mm figure does not really compute. That'd be like taking a picture of a 15mm figure and saying it doesn't compare to 28mm; there are more limitations on doing smaller figures. If the detail of a 15/20mm figure was on a 28mm it'd probably look naff. Ironically, if you ask me at least, Elhiems figs are actually done in more realistic poses; more of them are kneeling and firing, than standing and firing, crouching, keeping a low profile etc, the gun castings for 20mm are superb and I'd say that compared to many manufacturers, when you buy a pack you get a complete squad with all the correct gear which goes with that squads particular purpose, whether it be Marksmen, or Heavy weapons, a fire team etc.

Furthermore, as I think I said sometime before, doing modern combat with 28mm would restrict you to those uncommon engagements where troops end up firing at each other in fairly close quarters. Since most gun battles take place over huge areas of terrain, often with only a few dozen troops per side, I'd say 20mm is more suited to even skirmish gaming in the Modern Era.

My other thing that puts me of fully engaging in 28mm is, to me, there are too few ranges, and most of them uncomplete, and you have to wait for a long time before something new appears. Most of it also being centred on Afghanistan. With 20mm you aren't so limited because there is just so much stuff, and there are bands of people actively spending money on it to see it expand. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years time you'll have models for pretty much every Modern European army, and have more vehicle choices for those armies as well. Not everything will be available at anyone time, but just so much more variety. And to me that counts just as much as quality.

That is, at least how I see the situation. I will probably buy 28mm modern stuff for other projects, or because of how good say Empress figs look. But 20mm is -the- thing for modern/ultra moderns.

[carlos marighela]

For what it's worth I agree with your main point, inter- scale comparison is tough and it's all a matter of personal preference anyway.

Now for the sake up burning useless electrons, we can indulge in one of those pointless arguments about how we justify those preferences.

As I said in my first post 20mm has its advantages in terms of footprint. That's mostly a factor in terms of the terrain and other toys like the vehicles you use. Personally I use quite a bit of  20mm terrain with my 28's. Personal preference, i think it looks quite acceptable and like most things in gaming it's a compromise.

Arguing that real world engagement ranges favours 20mm over 28mm isn't really that logical. Every scale requires an abstraction in terms of groundscale. Now if you were to use 300 to 600 metres as the typical effective fire range for most infantry weapons (that's what they were considered to be when I was in the army) then you'll see the problem.

Now let's be generous in terms of figure to ground scaling you'll see what I mean. For the sake of argument, let's say a 28mm figure is roughly six foot tall in real life and to simplify the math lets say that ground scale is 15mm to the metre. So effective weapons range might be an envelope of  four and a half to nine metres for our 28mm rifleman. Let's be generous again and reduce that by a factor of 1/3 for our 20mm infantryman. Three to six metres?  I don't know about you but I don't really have access to an 18 foot table these days let alone one that's 27 foot long.

Now of course there are plenty of post war examples of the firefight developing at much closer range. Urban battles, anything fought in close terrain etc.

Most of us abstract scale and frankly there's not that much in it when you start down that track. Even most micro armour games do this. Never seen a game in 6mm where an infantry section advancing across open ground takes up the better part of a foot of table space.

Figure posing? Yeah, I prefer mine in patrolling poses or moving in contact, in part because they are the most utilitarian. That's purely a personal preference, it doesn't have any real logical rationale. Terrain allowing, most firefights are fought on your guts. I don't see terribly many figure ranges out there that feature a high proportion of prone figures. I understand they don't sell terribly well.

I buy many of my 28s as singles, not a luxury we can all indulge, I'll admit. Those I don't tend to sell in reasonably accurate proportions, Empress beinga  good example but then I've found there's not too much wastage in terms of the MoFo, Mongrel and even TAG figures I've bought.

You are right about more plentiful ranges in terms of 20mm. That said, there's a pretty fair selection of post war conflicts for which 28mm figures are available and it's getting better.  You'll also find there are people out there spending money to see 28mm ranges expand.

Personal taste. It would be a dull old world if we all fancied the same things.

[Brummie]

I don't see why it would be pointless to debate it. Its all good fun in the end. Good points.

Though I highly doubt that 28mm moderns will ever match 20mm. 20mm has had the luxury of diecast's backing it up, that'll never happen for 28mm in boosting what vehicles you can get. Plus (this is a guess) I believe commissioning 28mm sculpts is expensive, way more than 20mm (Elhiem for instance each figure commission costs around £20-£30) whereas 28mm it costs way more, though of course it would have to depend on that sculptor etc. Unless you have someone dedicated to 28mm moderns (for which Empress, TAG and Eureka are not) I don't think you'll see much expansion at least compared to 20mm.

[carlos marighela]

Maybe. I think the pre-eminent factor influencing my choice is that I prefer the 28mm sculpts and I find them more enjoyable to paint. As for vehicles I'm not fussed. Pretty much everything I want for my areas of interest already exists. I would like some Chinese modern vehicles to go with Col. Stone's range, if anyone is reading this but beyond that there aren't too many things I lack for. Then again I don't field too many anyway. Through a mix of resin and diecast my Portuguese are replete with every vehicle fielded, save for a APC version of the EBR and I'm working on the conversion. Brits, the same and about the only thing I want for for my modern Eureka USMC is an amtrack but I understand Imprint are making one as we speak.

If I want lots of armour and big battles, there's always 6mm and any scale is going to have a tough time matching the range available, let alone the price.

£20-£30 is cheap for a master, that's true.

[Brummie]

I wouldn't even say 6mm and 15mm has the variety 20mm has either, I was looking at 6mm and 15mm moderns before I went 20mm, and although you get the odd new piece, most of its Cold War stuff. Which is a shame, as a more extensive 6mm or 15mm moderns range might be quite nice. There is a lot there, granted, some stuff would be very difficult to get in 20mm, for now at least.

[Cherno]

Apparently Liberation miniatures haven'T been brought up, so I'll throw it in here. Their website might be archaic, but the quality is good from what I've heard (never seen them "in the flesh").

[Arlequín]

Bear in mind my remarks refer to what I game or am interested in gaming; post-WW2 to around 1980 (Korea, Indochina, Vietnam, various 'Bush Wars' and the Arab-Israeli conflicts). I have no interest in Iraqistan, or conjectural Red-Hordes rolling across the West German plains, which limits me in regards to what is available to use in any scale to varying extents.

I'll have to say that if you took away the bulk of 20mm figures, which imo, have the same standard of sculpting as a 15mm figure (or worse in some cases), then the numbers of usable 20mm figures is probably less than that available in 28mm. Which would be fine if you were gaming the same size actions in 20mm as I might be in 28mm, i.e. patrol and platoon size actions. 20mm wins out on the numbers of die-cast and plastic kits available, although even then some of the resin kits I'd have to use cost in the region of £30. 28mm allows me to mix and match, to a degree, with other non-military figures for other types of games I play, as well as the terrain used too.

For me the choice of using 20mm, would be for games of around company size, on virtually open terrain, which really wouldn't work visually with 28mm (Korea, Arab-Israeli etc..). You can mess around with ground scale, but it just doesn't look right. So in this, 20mm competes with 15mm as a figure size for me, not 28mm, which is a whole other debate. 

[Brummie]

Apparently Liberation miniatures haven'T been brought up, so I'll throw it in here. Their website might be archaic, but the quality is good from what I've heard (never seen them "in the flesh").

They are in the list. Liberation is now RH models.

Bear in mind my remarks refer to what I game or am interested in gaming; post-WW2 to around 1980 (Korea, Indochina, Vietnam, various 'Bush Wars' and the Arab-Israeli conflicts). I have no interest in Iraqistan, or conjectural Red-Hordes rolling across the West German plains, which limits me in regards to what is available to use in any scale to varying extents.

I'll have to say that if you took away the bulk of 20mm figures, which imo, have the same standard of sculpting as a 15mm figure (or worse in some cases), then the numbers of usable 20mm figures is probably less than that available in 28mm. Which would be fine if you were gaming the same size actions in 20mm as I might be in 28mm, i.e. patrol and platoon size actions. 20mm wins out on the numbers of die-cast and plastic kits available, although even then some of the resin kits I'd have to use cost in the region of £30. 28mm allows me to mix and match, to a degree, with other non-military figures for other types of games I play, as well as the terrain used too.

For me the choice of using 20mm, would be for games of around company size, on virtually open terrain, which really wouldn't work visually with 28mm (Korea, Arab-Israeli etc..). You can mess around with ground scale, but it just doesn't look right. So in this, 20mm competes with 15mm as a figure size for me, not 28mm, which is a whole other debate. 

I'd disagree on the bulk of the 20mm stuff point.

Most of my figures are Elhiem and Underfire. Those two companies alone allow me to field a lot of forces for various armies. I have some Liberation stuff, but i'm not mad keen on the sculpts, and MJ figures don't look great, although their Georgians are definitely a massive leap forward in detail. Thing is you could really disregard most companies stuff because they produce the same thing; Americans, Brits and some Afghans. Elhiem, Underfire, MJ are all moving away from that, and the level of detail of the stuff they are producing is increasing in quality pretty rapidly. Elhiems stuff a year back I would have said was, nothing uber special, however his early Generic Middle Eastern troops compared to his recent Modern Americans are a world apart detail wise. The development is there for all to see.

I'd also have to say its also consistent. Unlike 15mm Moderns or 28mm Moderns releases are pretty much monthly, some releasing very decent products twice a month. Its a bit like how 15mm sci fi is; the stream of stuff to waste your money on is nigh endless.

But yes, it is put way ahead of everything else because of the wide range of diecasts and plastics. But it is growing far quicker than other scales of moderns.

When I have some finished armies for my World war three project i'll have to post them up.

[mikedemana]

I love my Liberation Miniatures. Their range is huge, so just about any conflict can be gamed. Here are some pics of mine painted:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mikedemanagames/Gallery/ModernAfrica.html

You have to remember they're not 28mm. They paint up quickly and have loads of character, IMO...

Mike Demana

[Brummie]

Those are very nice figs mate 

Ever shown them on The Guild forum??

That's the Homeland of 20mm insanity.

[Ragnar]

Platoon 20 Soviets.



I like 'em.