Building units in WHFB 3rd Edition

[Christian]

Hi all,

About a year ago I picked up a copy of WHFB III and since then my wife and I have been picking up some units here and there to have a few games.

Pulling the units together with a story has been fun, but I am a bit stuck on the rules, especially with unit building.

I have a copy of Warhammer Armies and I'm using that as a basis (ignoring the min/max) but can't get my head around unit leaders and champions.

For the purpose of this exercise, take Skarloc's Wood Elves. Getting the rank and file is easy enough, let's say I put them as +2 Elites as per the "Guards" in WA.

I then have Skarloc, Glam, Kaia and Araflane to choose from as "hero" types.

I'm happy to demote Araflane to a simple musician, but what about using the other three? Can I have three heroes in one unit? Has anyone else made Skarloc's work for them in 3rd Ed? Oldhammer afficionados... I'm looking at you! 

I'd like to see if I have understood correctly. I've gone through the relevant sections in the book, but let's just pretend I know nothing... 

Thanks guys!

[Mason]

The way I see it you would have a standard bearer, musician and champion (lvl 5 or 10 hero), with the fourth character (Skarloc) as a high level Independent character that has attached himself to the unit.

It seems like too much bother trying to make them all heroes as such.

[Red Orc]

Weren't the rules for Skarloc built for 3rd Ed? Or were they built for 2nd? Do you have the originals?

I can't be too much help, I'm afraid, as I'm a 2nd Ed player, 3rd is too modern for me...

[Christian]

@Mason: Yes, this is what I am tempted to do at this stage Just thought I'd see what I could get away with!

@Red Orc: I believe the stats on the back of the box are 2nd Edition... there is a reproduction of the text and stats here: http://www.solegends.com/citrr/rrd04skarlocs.htm

[Red Orc]

Fair enough, they're 2nd Ed all right - they even say 'Profiles - 2nd Edition' on them (though that's SoL's commentary I guess which isn't always accurate, I remember having legthy discussiuons about the number of Dark Elves in the original Mengel Manhide boxed set as SoL gives different numbers in different places).

I *think* Minor Heroes became Lvl 10 Heroes in 3rd; 2nd Ed had Champions, Minor Heroes and Major Heroes: if memory serves (I haven't done any conversions of this sort for about 25 years, and then it was from 3rd to 2nd, so I may be mis-remembering) 3rd Ed had Lvl 5, 10, 15 and 20 Heroes, which obviously don't match exactly, but Lvl 10 I think was considered to be the equivalent to Minor Heroes. But, Mason might be right and Champions may be equivalent to 5/10, implying Minor heroes would be 15 and Major Heroes 20.

It's Kaia Stormwitch who's the biggest headache I think. A magic-using standard bearer is fine, for instance as an attached character (as Mason suggests for Skarloc) but then she's not really the regimental standard bearer. Maybe, move all her powers over into the standard itself? Instead of making her a wizard, why not say that the standard is a magic standard that can cast fireballs, has the morale-boosting effect mentioned, and has a couple of other spells that can be assigned on the day (ie, like a wizard... I'll try to find my old 2nd Ed rulebook if you like, so you can t least have a point of comparison).

No idea about attaching a Wardancer to a Scout unit to represent Glam's powers though - don't know how to handle that in 3rd at all.

[Mason]

Just looked it up:
Lvl 5, 10 and 15 Heroes must be assigned to units as leaders, unless designated as Army Standard Bearer (so varying levels of Champion).
Levels 20 and 25 are free to move between units and are most likely the equivalent of Minor and Major Heroes from 2nd.

Maybe make Kaia an Army Standard Bearer, who is attatched to the unit.
That way the magical abilities can be from the Standard (as this can have more abilities than a unit Standard).

Giving Glam Wardancer abilities as Champion of a Scout unit is a little more difficult however....time for another think.
 

[Red Orc]

Oh well, I'll shut up then as I'm obviously not helping. I don't remember Lvl 25 heroes at all to be honest. Mason has better (re)sources than my raddled memory!

How about making Glam an attached character (who is a Wardancer) and making Skarloc a super-champion? Would that work?

Seems what's necessary for the personalities is:

Skarloc - +2 on both WS and BS, and a buff for a couple of other stats, but nothing too horrendous (thus, you could potentially treat him as a 'super-trooper';

Kaia - lots (and lots) of offensive (and some defensive?) magic and a banner (ie a morale boost) - whether these can be combined is open for debate;

Glam - a champion with frenzy (I was thinking he should make multiple fast attacks but his initiative is lower than Skarloc's and Kaia's, and he only makes base one attack anyway - he moves quickly (+1 inch) but doesn't attack any more quickly);

Ariflane - a trooper with a horn that causes fear;

and the rest of the troopers.

Alternatively, there's always the option to treat them as a vanilla Wood-Elf unit and call them Skarloc, Glam, Kaia and Araflane, while using standard profiles...

[weazil]

I think you're worrying about it too much.

Oldhammer should be flexible - let the narrative drive the thing. You mentioned that you like collecting units with a history - so why change them to become mediocre archers and characters?

Just play them as they're described in 2nd ed - as a regiment of renown! Challenge your opponents to try and take them down as Skarloc and his famous scouts!

Regards
Gaj

[Christian]

Guys! This is all great and very helpful!

I guess I'm just trying to make sure it works in game terms, and still get a flavour for a unit of seasoned warriors with some great kit and abilities. I'm happy to lump them all together, but putting the magical abilities in the standard is also a brilliant idea.

I also wanted to get my head around the technical aspect of it... but that's just me.

Thanks for the help guys, feel free to nut about with any other ideas for units

[Mason]

I think you're worrying about it too much.

Oldhammer should be flexible - let the narrative drive the thing.

Not guilty, Guv!

Just trying to find a way to make them fit into the rules as they are, so that Christian does not have to have any debate about them.
I realise that most people playing Oldhammer wont be tourney player-types (I hope!), but having a basis in the standard rules is a good place to start, in my opinion. Once you have (a) regular opponent/s then little fiddles to make things work the way you want them should be easy.

I want to make some Oldhammer Skellie units soon (and an army eventually), so I will be bothering you fellas later in the year for YOUR thoughts on that...

[Christian]

You hit the nail on the head, Mason. For me the rules are a good starting point, after which I can break them. An equally valid approach is to say "I want to do this" and make the rules fit in.

I also have a unit of skeletons to build, right after I get them a musician!