new 28mm Conquistadors on Gringo40s site

[gringo]

thanks lowtardog ...aprreciate the excessschlong warning!!


will have a look at that thread!!

 next up more conquistador crossbowen..............

regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
and 28mm ranges

[Gothic Line]

 Really like them amazing detail!

[Franz_Josef]

I love the historical detail.  I noted that you gave the pikeman the native sandals that some of them had to adopt when their own shoes had worn out.  Any sword and buckler men coming?  (You gave the Conquistadors almost as many cavalrymen as Cortez had originally!)

[gringo]

thanks very much Gothic

Franz glad you like the figures...i did the excess of cavalry on purposes
to give a wide variety as though small in numbers they were so important

there will be sword and bukler men and other goodies fig wise!
best regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.bloghspot.com
and 28mm ranges

[cp models]

Love the new figures keep up the good work

[Bowman]

Ged, with all due respect, a few constructive criticisms:

1) Mounted Conquistadors with full or partial plate armour did not exist. I would prefer variations on your knights wearing the fabric vests. Even simple breastplates were discarded in favour of Aztec ichcahuapilli style vests.

2) After the initial meeting with the Maya during the Cordoba and Grijalva expeditions (those preceding Cortes), it was determined that pikes were useless. I am not aware of any situation where pikes were involved in the New World. It is possible they were employed in the First Peruvian Civil War between Pizzaro and Almagro. However, making a figure for a single battle in the entire conquest is risky. Is it possible to convert these figures to halberdiers instead? Halberdiers were used throughout the entire conquest in both South and Meso-America and would be a better addition to your line.

3) I've already made comments about your Mayans actually being Huaxtecs. While the Huaxtecs were a people who spoke a Mayan dialect, they are very different from the Maya, both in weaponry, clothing and shield design. I do like the Mayan officer, though.

I hope I don't come across as too harsh. I have a great love for this era, and I am glad if any manufacturer show interest as well. Especially one that makes such beautiful sculpts.

[Franz_Josef]

The armored cavalry are also useful for 16th century wars in continental Europe, and I believe the Coronado expedition had some cavalry (admittedly a very small minority, perhaps 5 men) with some armor.  The  equipment list for the Coronado expedition has survived:
CAVALRY EQUIPMENT (225 horsemen)
Armor:
5 full plate harnesses (including helmets) four of them Coronado’s
4 full sets of plate horse armor, all Coronado’s
7 corselets or ¾ plate (breast & back plates, collar, armor for arms, armor for upper legs, and an open helmet; the "Borgonata" was most popular i.e. burgonet)
8 cuirasses (breast & back plates)
55 Cota de Mala (long chainmail shirt, all but one sleeveless)
2 Jacqueta de Mala (sleeveless chainmail vest)
3 sets of chainmail for the legs.
207 Gambeson/Esquipil quilted cotton jackets
65 leather jackets
20 morion style helmets
7 borgonata style helmets
23 buffe (plate or chainmail protection for face and neck)
2 gorgets (plate collar)
2 metal gauntlets (not a pair)
19 “armor for the head” (just what this refers to is not stated, but it is
differentiated from helmets)
4 quilted cotton armor for the head

[gringo]

franz joseph fascinating list makes for a really interesting read...
thanks for posting

regards
Ged

www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
and 28mm ranges

[carlos marighela]

Ged,

Will there be any variants for the pike?

[cdm]

<<1) Mounted Conquistadors with full or partial plate armour did not exist. I would prefer variations on your knights wearing the fabric vests. Even simple breastplates were discarded in favour of Aztec ichcahuapilli style vests.>>

This is untrue, try reading the court cases and probanzas of the conquistadores claims of service, which clearly in some instances talk about the armour worn. Armour was a mix of European from plate and partial plate to native. I couldn't tell you what the conquistadoras wore though, I look forward to whatever you produce there

[gringo]

bowman

no offence taken im happy to take all comments on board.the Pikeman
actually was made open handed on purpose to carry other weapons.i will have a Halbard made as this is "different"

i will be doing some "bandaged" Maya at some point...i have the
daisy shields done and will add these to the mix.my Maya really are
Huaxtecs i will confess and as they spoke Mayan and in many of the books i have read are considered Mayan i went with this. im sure you know more then me on the subject but great care was taken and i read every book i could and studied avery piece of info i could .Remember old
chap you are probably a sage on the subject and for me its a learning curve. i will address all the comments and add more "linen" armour to my knights.. will probably end up with more then Cortez ever had in real life

ok bowman im considering making a dog and handler team..but want to go with mastiffs i/o greyhounds ?

Carlos there will be sword and buckler troops made

cdm thanks for your input. actually chaps any further request will be listened to!!  regards Ged www.gringo40s.com

[gringo]

Carlos

i will look at my pikeman and work out what i need next...different weapons and pose.............

regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
and 28mm ranges

ps might be good if someone could post all sources available info
wise as it may help the war effort

pss the debate on the armour worn/not worn is fascinating
and may prove expensive to me

[gringo]

Cdm

any chance you could assist by posting up some of the court cases
ref or books so i can take a look............i like to get things right
and i can "adjust" my figures accordingly

regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
and 28mm conquistadors
ps may turn into a one to one range!!!!

[Bowman]

<<1) Mounted Conquistadors with full or partial plate armour did not exist. I would prefer variations on your knights wearing the fabric vests. Even simple breastplates were discarded in favour of Aztec ichcahuapilli style vests.>>

This is untrue, try reading the court cases and probanzas of the conquistadores claims of service, which clearly in some instances talk about the armour worn.

Mea Culpa time. It is incorrect to state that they didn't exist. I should have said, "Mounted Conquistadors with full or partial plate armour did not exist in sufficient quantities to purchase many armoured figures. Especially, once the campaigning began. I would still urge Ged to manufacture the majority of his mounted figures with cotton armour."

I will, however, disagree with your reasoning above. The probanzas are legal disclosures where the person explains his expenditures (armor was very expensive to these low level noblemen) in order to justify their claims and subsequent remittance. It is proof of armor owned, not of armor worn.

As for full plate armour, let's start with Prof. John Pohl's assessment: "The degree to which the Conquistadors wore armor is debatable. Either the Conquistadors used very little armor, or it's employment was so commonplace as to be hardly worth mentioning.........It was insufferable to wear in the wet, insect infested tropical environment. Heavy, it radiated heat in excess of 200 degrees in the direct sunlight and had to be constantly cleaned or painted to protect it from rusting."

The Codex Duran, the Relacion de Michoacan and The Lienzo de Tlaxcala indicate that full plate armor was eschewed for a breastplate, adarga and helmet. Most figures are shown wearing cotton armour of varios types. Bernal Diaz also states that plate harness was incomplete and the breastplate only was retained. Later in the Chichimec Wars, mounted Conquistadors had to armour themselves (and their horses) quit heavily against the constant barrage of the arrows of the Chichimec archers. The Relacion Geografica clearly shows that such mounted knights wore quilted cotton corselets or doubled leather corselets. No plate armour........too heavy, too hot.

In the interest of fairness here are two examples of plate armour:





I believe these pictures are of the early campaigns against factions of the Tlaxcala. The first picture shows a partial plate wearing caballero with unarmoured lower body, as described by Bernal Diaz. The second picture shows a conquistador with a fully enclosed "armet" helmet. Pohl states that they were too hot to wear, and the pivots and hinges on the visor and movable chin piece would quickly rust, rendering them immovable.

[Bowman]

However, most of the existing pictures show cotton corselets with a few breastplates or gorgelets.











The last picture seems to be of a mounted conquistador wearing a breastplate. In the Enrique E. Guerra Collection is a cut down cuirass employing only the front part of armour with the sharp cut off metal edges covered in rawhide. This was worn over the upper front chest. I can't find a copy of that on the internet, but a B+W photo is in Pohl's Aztecs and Conquistadors book. Pohl's comments, "Much lighter than a full breastplate, it allowed the soldier more freedom of movement, but was heavy enough to ward off most native weapons.

I suppose it is telling when authors like Prof. Ross Hassig talk of the advantages the Conquistadors had over the indigenous natives, they mention horses, gunpowder, crossbows, steel blades, war dogs, etc., they never mention armour. In fact both Diaz and Duran mention how an atl-atl tip at close range could penetrate the Spanish armour. One has to ask what is the actual benefit of the heavy and hot plate armour? What weapons are you being protected from that a good cotton corselet or native ichcahuapilli couldn't provide?

I've had the John Jenkins designed Eureka conquistador figurines for a few years now. Both my Cortes figure and my Standard bearer are wearing full plate armour. I think it looks cool and marks out Cortes from the other Caballeros. The only real Cavalry charge in Mexico was at the Battle of Otumba. Given that the Spanish and their Tlaxcaltec allies just barely escaped from La Noche Triste, I doubt anyone was wearing a lot of plate armour.

I'd be happy to be shown otherwise.