Nellies in Medieval warfare

[Paul]

They were commonly used in ancient warfare but in the medieval period?
Ivé found this 13th Cent Image but nothing about them being used on the battlefield.

[Atheling]

Nothing there but a notice asking you to upgrade your account Paul  .

Darrell.

[sukhe_bator]

Elephants were used extensively in India & SE Asia right up until the C19. Most notably by the Delhi Sultanates and their Hindu opponents, and later by the Timurids and the Mughals. Only the rise of gunpowder and rockets caused them to be relegated from the front line in the late C17-C18. Thereafter they took on command and ceremonial and logistical duties.

The elephants used by the Greeks and Romans in antiquity were native to the Middle East and Northern Africa and were used and hunted to extinction in the 'civilized world'. If you read David Attenborough's 'The First Eden' the rise of Classical civilization is pretty much a catalogue of ecological catastrophe for the Mediterranean. They simply were not available in the Mediterranean which explains why they fell out of favour in the Western world in the Medieval period.

[Paul]

Nothing there but a notice asking you to upgrade your account Paul  .

Darrell.

Thanks. It appeared first off but now has gone. I´ll upload it someother way..like......this;

[Paul]

Elephants were used extensively in India & SE Asia right up until the C19. Most notably by the Delhi Sultanates and their Hindu opponents, and later by the Timurids and the Mughals. Only the rise of gunpowder and rockets caused them to be relegated from the front line in the late C17-C18. Thereafter they took on command and ceremonial and logistical duties.

The elephants used by the Greeks and Romans in antiquity were native to the Middle East and Northern Africa and were used and hunted to extinction in the 'civilized world'. If you read David Attenborough's 'The First Eden' the rise of Classical civilization is pretty much a catalogue of ecological catastrophe for the Mediterranean. They simply were not available in the Mediterranean which explains why they fell out of favour in the Western world in the Medieval period.

Thanks. I´ve been digging about on the web and found, buried in a dark Corner, this;

The Crew (and the coats-of-arms on the howdah) look  european.

[sukhe_bator]

They were simply using dress that they were familiar with to illustrate historical tales and episodes from the bible. This is very common in the Medieval period. It in no way should be taken as fact that Europeans used elephants in the Medieval period! Manuscripts illustrations like these are very useful for showing the styles of dress contemporary to their period, but were more like cartoons - not photographs, and only as accurate as the experience of the illustrator - usually a monk closeted up with very little actual experience of the outside world.

[Vermis]

I have an old copy of The Elephant: Endangered Animal by Dan Freeman, with that second image. The caption reads:

The war elephant portrayed in this medieval manuscript painting is carrying an impossibly large fortress full of quarrelsome knights, armed with all manner of weapons. The drawing of the animal is remarkably accurate, however, indicating that the artist had actually seen this rare creature, or had had information from a trader travelling in the East or a soldier from a Crusade.

He mentions that 'The final demise of the Asian elephant as a creature of war in the West... did not actually come about for over a thousand years.' After Alexander, I assume, whose elephant-related exploits precede that quote. But then an example of 'late use' immediately after that is Timur's attack on the Sultanate of Delhi in 1398/1399, which is not what I'd personally call 'in the West'.   Though maybe the context is western asia rather than europe. It's a little vague - to me, anyway.

[Paul]

From Wikipedia;

In the Middle Ages, elephants were seldom used in Europe. Charlemagne took his one elephant, Abul-Abbas, when he went to fight the Danes in 804,[43] and the Crusades gave Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II the opportunity to capture an elephant in the Holy Land, the same animal later being used in the capture of Cremona in 1214

Abul-Abbas apparently died near Munster..Germany. So theoretically I could make a war nellie being used by western troops 0r at least one with a howdah with musicians like the  Cremona elephant ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremona_elephant

[Vermis]

Spoiler:

You could always do a pre-emptive Connington army from ASoIaF.

Link

[Paul]

Spoiler:

You could always do a pre-emptive Connington army from ASoIaF.

Link

If it´s good enough for game of thrones..it´s good enough for me. 

[Atheling]

Thanks. It appeared first off but now has gone. I´ll upload it someother way..like......this;

Positive that they were never used by any European armies. Maybe it's a Western European illustration of something contemporary happening much further east?

Darrell.

[sukhe_bator]

Almost certainly a depiction by Western illustrators of an event in Classical history, possibly Hannibal crossing the Alps or the Campaigns of Alexander, but using contemporary costume and armour... which given the heater shields and other details puts this illustration squarely in the mid to late C13 to C14.

[sukhe_bator]

http://bestiary.ca/etexts/druce1919-2/druce%20-%20elephant%20in%20medieval%20legend%20and%20art.pdf
see the section on the 'Elephant and Castle' variously depicted in medieval bestiaries

[Druzhina]

Yes, depictions of history with the subjects wearing the costume contemporary with the time the depictions were made, e.g.
Battle of the Hydaspes (326BC), Combat of Alexander and Poros from The 'Roger Histories', or Ancient history until Caesar. Acre, c.1287

Mirror Site
Battle of the Hydaspes (326BC), Combat of Alexander and Poros from The 'Roger Histories', or Ancient history until Caesar. Acre, c.1287

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

[FramFramson]

One really interesting question that hasn't been touched on yet is when did large-scale use of them cease in the west? The end of the Palmyrenes and similar eastern pretenders? Earlier, say the fall of Carthage? Later, say the loss of Roman Africa? The end of Persia as a serious power? Or later still if the Byzantines used them at all?

Not that any of those powers were particularly known for use of elephants (except Carthage), but any of those events could have disrupted trade to the point where elephants could no longer get to Europe.