New 28mm Mesoamerican Aztecs from Gringo40s

[Captain Blood]

He's undercoated, as of this morning... 

[gringo]

yippee.... ..........excellente as they say in Espanya!!
mucho gratias.this fig will suit your colurfull and exuberant
style methinks!

[Lowtardog]

Lookinmg forward to seeing the captains paintwork

on the axes, they were often tokens of rank and what you wil see will be warriors of other nations using them too so I wouldnt worry about the chaps having other weapons.

a couple of items here



these are similar to Tarascan axe heads



Oh and Richard you can fill your boots on colour for the Eagle warriors and Jaguar warrior you dont need to keep them in natural colours I think CDM still has his papers on the warrior uniforms etc


http://www.chronofus.net/wargames/aztecs/AztecShields.pdf

After painting 350 + of the buggers 6-7 years ago I dont think I could face doing any more however these look lovely Ged

[gringo]

Lowtardog

wow
thats a reply and a half........been immersed in all the details on the many types of warrior castes within castes themselves. may need to print this lot off.many thanks for your efforts.....i guess the Aztecs were VERY
complex dress wise and only they knew the nuances of an extra lip ornament in jade or a funkier hairstyle..better banner etc..

i guess the "paper" side would be replaced after combat and new feathers etc issued..as they ranked up..or not as the case may be

im sure i may be able to tempt you with the odd figure!! again thanks

regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com

[Captain Blood]

Oh and Richard you can fill your boots on colour for the Eagle warriors and Jaguar warrior you dont need to keep them in natural colours

That's lucky 
Thanks Karl...
Maybe he'll be done by Christmas day, if I get some time over the next 24 hours or so... 

[Lowtardog]

No ned to thank me Ged, CDM who posts on here has written all of this and much more he Bowman Neil Burt and I have had a lot of discussions over the years as Neil and I planned out a demo game of Tenochtitlan many years ago, those two chaps are a wealth of knowledge on Aztec warfare and military doctrine etc

[Lowtardog]

That's lucky 
Thanks Karl...
Maybe he'll be done by Christmas day, if I get some time over the next 24 hours or so... 

hehe bags of time chap...bags of time 

[gringo]

Karl

actually im considering putting a game on at Salute maybe 2015/6

which will be from the Aztec point of view.......just need to get

that canoe design done to the best of my ability!!....i have a few

other ideas as well which i may well put forward later......

Richard

painting an Aztec is better then wearing that Santa Outfit again!! eh

[Bowman]

........why not provide the appropriate textual descriptions of what you think would be accurate representations rather than popping up after they are made to criticize them.

I only saw the figure when Ged published the picture on this forum. I asked if it was possible to get the figure with a maquahuitl. I thought I was pretty forthcoming when Ged asked for pictorial representations to help with his Mayan figures.

[cdm]

<<You are assuming a level of uniformity of weapons manufacturing that did not occur in what were essentially stone age cultures. The number of blades were also dependent on the size of the maquahuitl......something also not of uniform consideration.>>

By the late Aztec period there was a history of making the same weapon for centuries and the manufacture being family based dynasties who were all quartered in the same district and whose life purpose was to make weapons only, so let's assume they wake up every day and every generation and reinvent the 'wheel.' I don't particularly see any major change in form as the function and materials didn't change, aside from customising changes necessary for the individual user's size and swing to balance the weapon for combat. The mechanics of thickness of wood and seating of blades is unlikely to go through much refinement by the late period after extensive testing in the field.

If you strip the pretty colours off the Armeria images, they are basic weapons. If you find it confusing the Aztecs used a short stabbing spear, it might be worth reconsidering ideas about their combat methods, reading, and making enlightened considerations of the evidence. If the evidence doesn't suit the theory, discarding the evidence is always certainly an option.

Our view of 'stone age' and the Aztecs are clearly markedly different. For a society where advancement even for nobles only occurs through mortal combat, the weapon is THE key to status within society. To ascribe to it a *whatever* attitude betrays it's essential function as a basis to the society as a whole.

At the end of the day if Ged wants them to wield light sabres, I'm all for it

[Bowman]

Chronufus, with all due respect:

<<You are assuming a level of uniformity of weapons manufacturing that did not occur in what were essentially stone age cultures. The number of blades were also dependent on the size of the maquahuitl......something also not of uniform consideration.>>

By the late Aztec period there was a history of making the same weapon for centuries and the manufacture being family based dynasties who were all quartered in the same district and whose life purpose was to make weapons only, so let's assume they wake up every day and every generation and reinvent the 'wheel.' I don't particularly see any major change in form as the function and materials didn't change, aside from customising changes necessary for the individual user's size and swing to balance the weapon for combat. The mechanics of thickness of wood and seating of blades is unlikely to go through much refinement by the late period after extensive testing in the field.

That may be true but that is not what was stated. The various cultures from Mesoamerica that used obsidian edged broadswords (as you well know, the maquahuitl predates the Aztecs) precludes any uniformity of construction. The fellow asked how many cherts of obsidian were in a maquahuitl and I was responding to that.

If you strip the pretty colours off the Armeria images, they are basic weapons.

Well, if you strip the fancy engraving from the King's suit of armour in the museum, it is also a basic suit of armor. The fact that the Ameria weapons were ornately decorated makes my point.

If you find it confusing the Aztecs used a short stabbing spear, it might be worth reconsidering ideas about their combat methods, reading, and making enlightened considerations of the evidence. If the evidence doesn't suit the theory, discarding the evidence is always certainly an option.

I'll ignore the needless jibe. The sources I've come across indicate that the Ameria spear is "atypical" in it's length. Certainly the historical descriptions of the tepoztopilli in my books indicate that they were usually longer. This is reinforced by the illustrations in my copy of the Codex Mendoza and others. From the original writings, we also know that the Chinanteca employed long tepoztopilli of up to 21 feet in length! However, they are also atypical, and seem to be unique to the cultures of the Oaxaca valley. If a 3 foot tepoztopilli was not commonplace, then I'd be happy to be shown otherwise.

Source   Achille Jubinal, La Armería Real ou collection des principales pièces de la Galerie d'Armes Anciennes de Madrid, 1846

Our view of 'stone age' and the Aztecs are clearly markedly different. For a society where advancement even for nobles only occurs through mortal combat, the weapon is THE key to status within society. To ascribe to it a *whatever* attitude betrays it's essential function as a basis to the society as a whole.

Perhaps, but I'm using the typical anthropological definition here. It is a description of technological development only and has nothing to do with social organization and military advancement. In the absence of large scale smelting and metallurgical technology, "stone age" or perhaps "volcanic glass age" would be a suitable description. The Tarascans and the Inca were the cultures that were just starting out in metal edged weaponry. As to the "whatever" attitude, I'm not sure what you mean. Unless it corresponds to your comment below.

At the end of the day if Ged wants them to wield light sabres, I'm all for it

Sorry to derail the thread, but my preference is for the warrior with the maquahuitl. Others may prefer otherwise.

Merry Christmas to all

[Captain Blood]

Gentlemen, please. Your erudite discussion is enlightening, but please leave jibes, rebukes, tlatzontectlis, tetotocamītls and other barbed weapons at the door

Unlike certain other sites, expert fisticuffs is not an approved sport here at Lead Adventure.

Do feel free to rip seven bells out of each other (and Ged) on PM.

Happy Christmas to all of you, by the way. (Ah the season of goodwill...  )

Richard

[Bowman]

Lol, Richard.

(Was I just called "erudite"?)

[Captain Blood]

And finally...



More pics here... http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=61593.0

[Conquistador]

<snip>

Unlike certain other sites, expert fisticuffs is not an approved sport here at Lead Adventure.

<snip>

Oh.  My.   

Have I wandered on to TMP?      

Seriously, all good information but as pointed out this is a forum for discussing war games.  It is nice to get things historically accurate as reasonably possible (well, Fantasy, VSF, Future Wars, Gothic Horror, Pulp, Call of Cthulhu, Weird Wars, and Post-Apocalyptic Tales maybe not so much,) but please let's not get too hung up on details on the miniatures because they are essentially just pretty 3D counters in the final analysis.

Gracias,

Glenn