looking for information about Ireland

[HerbyF]

If you can find it 'Pig Wars' is a good little set of skirmish rules for the period with a little back ground material about forces.

[commissarmoody]

Might have to check these rules out. Who makes It?

[HerbyF]

I will have to check mine when I get home. They are out of print & I think the company is out of business. You might be able to find a set around some where. They were fairly popular when they were availible.

[Arlequín]

Not everyone had Gallowglas, which in essence just means 'Foreign Mercenary'. The 'Kerns' provided both the ill-clad skirmishers and the somewhat more usual 'medium infantry'.

We discussed 15th Century Irish a while back and there's some info that is still relevant to earlier times though;
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=51039.0

[commissarmoody]

Thanks for the link

[commissarmoody]

Were the Or titles of Ridire (Kinght), ceitherne (warband) cliathairi, or would Kern be the catch all for the 14c?
Also would the title of Muire or Muiredach still in be in use daring the Bruces Campaign in Ireland?

[Drunkendwarf]

I will have to check mine when I get home. They are out of print & I think the company is out of business. You might be able to find a set around some where. They were fairly popular when they were availible.

A few years back I bought the rules (digital) via the Pig Wars Yahoo group (I think the group owner is the writer of the rules).

DJ

[commissarmoody]

I must be off to yahoo then 

[Arlequín]

Were the Or titles of Ridire (Kinght), ceitherne (warband) cliathairi, or would Kern be the catch all for the 14c?
Also would the title of Muire or Muiredach still in be in use daring the Bruces Campaign in Ireland?

Well they were far less exact than we are and we use 'infantryman', 'rifleman', 'marine', 'trooper', 'fusilier', 'grenadier' to describe a bloke with a rifle, put it that way. 

I'm pretty certain that all the old titles and terms would have been used, although maybe their meanings might have changed. We use 'battalion' still today, which is simply a 'portion of a battle', 'battle' being the traditional medieval term for what we might call a 'brigade'. The Irish prime-minister is still the Taoiseach, which means 'Chief' or 'Leader', and Fianna; 'family' or 'following', is also still in use. 

As far as I know (and it really isn't that far here), 'Buannacht' were paid soldiers (like 'retainers' in England), while 'Kerne' were levies and within those general terms there were a number of divisions. 'Ridire' is just debased English for 'rider', which might mean anything between 'horse boy' and a mounted warrior (or gentleman etc).

Irish society was quite structured, with legal limits on what could be worn and weapons that could be carried, but then again so was medieval France and England. What we call 'peasants' are not the same as what that meant in the medieval era. Across all of Europe were 'free' or 'unfree' and only 'freemen' ('Yeomen' in England and the Pale) could legally own and carry a weapon. As memory serves, the Kern were the general class of 'freemen' and the Buannachts were drawn from out of them, much like Joe Average today joining the military, except he would be joining the 'Fianna' ('family' 'following' or 'gang') of a noble.

Like in England there were set levels of weapons and equipment that a man was duty and honour bound to own, based on his income/assets... like the U.S. 2nd Amendment 'rights', freemen had the 'right' to carry weapons, but there was also a social 'duty' to do so and he was 'anti-social' if he did not. Within the Kern, the bulk of them would be required to possess very little, while at their highest level, you were probably talking a horse, spear or pole-arm, a sword and some form of armour.

Exactly what these levels were I couldn't say, but I will guarantee they are set out somewhere. The Welsh ones are somewhere and I imagine that the two societies were not so different in their structure back then, only the names were different. 

[emperorpenguin]

, and Fianna; 'family' or 'following', is also still in use. 

Fianna means 'warrior' or 'soldier'. 'Clann' is Irish for family.

Fianna is in the Irish national anthem (Amhran na bhFiann - Soldier's Song) and the Irish political party Fianna Fail, and one of my friends has a daughter named Fianna

[Arlequín]

I beg to differ; curaidh, gaiscíoch, laoch, saighdear, fear feachd and millidh are all words for warrior or soldier and fear-cogaidh also means a 'man of war' or warrior. I've never seen 'Fian' used to describe a single person.

Fian is a following or 'unit' of warriors, i.e. a warband, or a chieftain's 'family' or household of retainers and Fianna is the plural. Even 'Fenian' comes from Féne - a body of freemen. Fianna Fáil does indeed translate as 'warriors of destiny' or 'warriors of Eire', but warriors is used in the sense of 'a unit (or party) of warriors', or as a 'whole', rather than just more than one warrior, which might be laochra (sing. laoch) amongst other variations of the above.

Even Amhran na bhFiann is The Soldiers' Song, not A Soldier's Song.

The name Fianna derives from Fionn mac Cumhaill's daughter of the same name and somewhat unconnected.

Clann is Irish for 'family' in the sense of children and descendants (as in the group Clannad, who are all brothers and sisters of the same family), for the social group in general it's Fine, as in Fine Gael (Family/Tribe of the Irish).

[emperorpenguin]

Well I live in Ireland, learnt irish at school and have never ever heard "Fianna" as "family".

EDIT I think you're confusing 'Fianna' with 'Fine' which would upset the Irish political parties no end!

[Arlequín]

Well I live in Ireland, learnt irish at school and have never ever heard "Fianna" as "family".

EDIT I think you're confusing 'Fianna' with 'Fine' which would upset the Irish political parties no end!

It's indeed my fault, I was using 'family' in dark ages/medieval terms, i.e. a lord's 'household and retinue', or like the Saxon 'hearth troop' (relatives, adoptees, distant cousins etc.), like with the Welsh 'Teulu', rather than the 'Dad, Mom and kids sort'.

[commissarmoody]

Thanks for the back and fourth.

[Cubs]

Yeah, just from reading the Irish Cycles my reading is that 'Fianna' was a term used to describe a band or retinue of warriors, roughly equivalent to a knightly order. They were usually young unmarried men bound to each other and to their Lord by oaths of service. They would presumably drop out and be replaced as they married and/or inherited lands and formed their own retinue.