French Pavises

[Stuart]

Can anyone offer some thoughts on French pavise designs, ive generally gone with civic heraldry or the cross of St Denis. I was wondering whether France modern would feature or possibly the heraldry of the captain was common. Im interested in late fifteenth century.

Also, are there any more French symbols?

This means im painting again

Thanks

[Ehouarn]

Surely the most common symbol was the white cross. That could be painted on a half green and bleu pavise or any other color from a French knight, except white (argent) of course.

France modern would rather be worn by the kings' own troops.

You can also use the cities' heraldry as in the 15th century they had to provide "franc-archers" when king was calling to raise the army.

[Patrice]

I agree with Ehouarn. I don't think a captain would be important enough to have his own arms on pavises. But an important lord could have his arms, or his livery colors, on his soldiers pavises.

A white cross (St Denis) is easier, and you could vary the background.

[Atheling]

I agree with Ehouarn. I don't think a captain would be important enough to have his own arms on pavises. But an important lord could have his arms, or his livery colors, on his soldiers pavises.

A white cross (St Denis) is easier, and you could vary the background.

I realise that in France there was a very different political situation as well as in an earlier period in history, but please see the pics below on my website from Warwick Castle (scroll about half way down for pics of the pavises):

http://darrellhindley.co.uk/?p=133

I'm not so sure that highly ranked captains would not have had their own personal badges on their respective troops. After all, in the Late middle Ages it was a mark of ownership. The nobility did believe that they owned these men!

Darrell.

[Patrice]

please see the pics below on my website from Warwick Castle (scroll about half way down for pics of the pavises):

http://darrellhindley.co.uk/?p=133

Nice pics Atheling

These men and their pavises seem to belong to the Earl of Warwick? So they wear the badge of their great lord.

I was talking about lesser captains who were given the command of some troop which did not really belong to them.

[Atheling]

Nice pics Atheling

These men and their pavises seem to belong to the Earl of Warwick? So they wear the badge of their great lord.

Yeah, they are Warwick's men. OK, waxworks but you see what I mean  . May as well have been waxworks at the Second Battle of St Albans  

I was talking about lesser captains who were given the command of some troop which did not really belong to them.

OK, I would assume that they would be under some captain and that the captain himself would be answerable to someone of higher rank(?). If I'm correct then I would say that they might have taken up his badge or heraldic device of some kind. I'm no expert on the conventions of heraldry in France in the period we are discussing but I expect that what I have outlined may well be the case.

Having said all that I'mm happy to be corrected- it's all about learning for me.

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

If you are talking about captains in the generic sense, no they were not important enough to warrant their own livery or badge, but the 'Captains' appointed by the crown to lead the Ordonnance (and later the Bandes Francaise) Companies were effectively battalion commanders and from what I can gather were obliged to choose a livery for their men, which would later evolve into 'Colonels' of regiments choosing the uniform colours of their men in the 17th Century.

I cannot provide any sources, but I imagine that contingents of Francs-Archer from the towns and cities would wear municipal livery and badges. The members of various shooting societies North of the Seine would likely have their own livery and badges too.

Some form of livery for the bulk of the Francs-Archer might have existed, especially as the Crown increasingly provided 'Royal' equipment and armour to make up for the lack of it amongst their 'volunteers'... it got so bad that they were actually providing clothing for them at one point.

The Bandes Francaise would also have a uniform and almost certainly each of their appointed Captains would clothe his men in a 'uniform', just like the Ordonnance Captains.

Pretty much the same practice was already in use in Brittany and Burgundy (not everyone wore Blue and White), although across the board, few details of colours and badges have survived.     

This was a period where the Crown was increasingly being separated from reliance on the aristocracy to provide its forces. While the nobility still served, they did so as individuals and not the commanders of retinues they had raised themselves.

Many aristocrats were freed from the need to serve in return for cash to hire professionals, allowing them to stick to enjoying the pleasures of their estates, oppress their peasants and to begin to set things up for the Revolution.

[Atheling]

If you are talking about captains in the generic sense, no they were not important enough to warrant their own livery or badge, but the 'Captains' appointed by the crown to lead the Ordonnance (and later the Bandes Francaise) Companies were effectively battalion commanders and from what I can gather were obliged to choose a livery for their men, which would later evolve into 'Colonels' of regiments choosing the uniform colours of their men in the 17th Century.

I cannot provide any sources, but I imagine that contingents of Francs-Archer from the towns and cities would wear municipal livery and badges. The members of various shooting societies North of the Seine would likely have their own livery and badges too.

Some form of livery for the bulk of the Francs-Archer might have existed, especially as the Crown increasingly provided 'Royal' equipment and armour to make up for the lack of it amongst their 'volunteers'... it got so bad that they were actually providing clothing for them at one point.

The Bandes Francaise would also have a uniform and almost certainly each of their appointed Captains would clothe his men in a 'uniform', just like the Ordonnance Captains.

Pretty much the same practice was already in use in Brittany and Burgundy (not everyone wore Blue and White), although across the board, few details of colours and badges have survived.     

This was a period where the Crown was increasingly being separated from reliance on the aristocracy to provide its forces. While the nobility still served, they did so as individuals and not the commanders of retinues they had raised themselves.

Many aristocrats were freed from the need to serve in return for cash to hire professionals, allowing them to stick to enjoying the pleasures of their estates, oppress their peasants and to begin to set things up for the Revolution.

We,, I think that sums it up nicely  .

Darrell.