How long to put on full plate?

[shandy]

I just found this video from the Metropolitan Museum of Art:


I guess it could be done faster, but they are explaining everything in a clear fashion...

[FramFramson]

I'm sure there's a 'dirty hoes' gag there, but I'm far too mature to reach for it.

But not so mature as to not hint at it.

And thank god for that. 

[Dr. Zombie]

The world of medieval arms and armour is riddled with double entendres and below the waist jokes.

The danish word for sword sheath is the same word used for vagina. Luckily one is grow enough to not giggle at that every time someone mentions that.

[former user]

the latin word of vagina means sword sheath.....

as to the OT, there is not much to add to the posted video, THX for that one. keep in mind that it is a jousting set he puts on.

the issue of the surprise attack is to be taken seriously.
in my personal experience, reenactment armour can be a very different thing from the real one. What we see in the clip is a set that is very clearly manufactured to fit. This is very expensive nowadays although many armourers claim to work to measure (and it is still expensive enough), this is actually not the case. If given the choice, I would rather not wear even a splendid suit that fits so well as the one explained. I always preferred a more flexible combination of hardened leather, mail and local plate reinforcements for the more endangered areas.
As to the "lightness" of chainmail or armour in general - even with my flexibility optimized set (Dark Ages style), in the times when I still actively took part in reenactment battles, it once took me 2 massages an a good night sleep to recover from the strain of five hours of repeated short engagements. Don't forget that on top of a chainmail tunic not only comes a mead horn and gallantly leaning on the bar, but usually helmet, weapon and shield (and possibly a few other paraphernalia as well) plus a lot of physical activity 

In my personal oppinion and experience, a full plate of armour that is not made to fit (and is therefore extremely expensive - far more than 1000 €) is a waste of money - today even more than in  the middle ages, because it will encumber your movement. Plate armour is a specialised device made for massive shock cavalry charges that rarely pays out wearing unmounted in battle (see the battle of Agincourt for that matter) as a full set. Only the richest knights could afford a custom tailored set, many bought 2nd hand adapted to fit. All those cartwheels and jumping up demonstrations work when there is nobody trying to kill you on the side...

As to the smell - T.H. White's lesser known "the ill made knight"  has very well written accounts of how leather takes up personal odour, and I can fully confirm this: impossible to get rid of the "personal note" 

[Mitch K]

As to the smell - T.H. White's lesser known "the ill made knight"  has very well written accounts of how leather takes up personal odour, and I can fully confirm this: impossible to get rid of the "personal note" 

Hence the line in Blackadder II "My God, Percy! It smells like a pair of armoured trousers at the end of the Hundred Years War!"

[Arlequín]

Interesting thread guys, it's been good reading through it. 

In reference to 1st St. Albans, the Lancastrians had ridden to a place to meet and discuss, so for the high and mighty it is possible that their armour may have been in its chests and barrels for transit. If that was the case, the time to unpack it would have to be added to the time taken to put it on and I imagine there would be some degree of confusion over what was in which wagon when they realised the Yorkists were arrayed in warlike manner. 

[Patrice]

In the time represented in a skirmish wargame - a few minutes? - I would consider that surprised defenders would just have time to put on a padded jack and perhaps a breastplate; not more.

[warburton]

Even a delay of ten minutes could be be very significant if the defenders were taken by surprise (to get back somewhat to the starting point!).

But, very interesting thread!

[Atheling]

Even a delay of ten minutes could be be very significant if the defenders were taken by surprise (to get back somewhat to the starting point!).

But, very interesting thread!

I'm not arguing against the fact that armour was a time consuming process to put on but it's probably worth remembering that if there was a hint of battle about to be joined then armour would be donned, (though the helmet might be left off for ease of breathing)- it wouldn't take long to put on a Gorget and a Sallet after all.

Darrell.

[shandy]

Well, actually I want to design a scenario (skirmish) inspired by the battle at Ferrybridge. The Yorkists led by Lord FitzWalter were camped at the river crossing and surprised by the Lancastarians under Lord Clifford. It seems they were caught while asleep. FitzWalter rushed out of his tent without donning his armour and was killed. So, in the timescale of the skirmish, 10 minutes would make a difference (I presume that in camp, the armour was sorted and prepared, so could be put on quickly).
I guess I will give the men-at-arms a dice roll as soon as the alarm is raised - the may try at the end of each turn and if they roll 5+ they may join the fray armoured…
Thanks again for the instructive discussion!
Shandy

[Atheling]

Well, actually I want to design a scenario (skirmish) inspired by the battle at Ferrybridge. The Yorkists led by Lord FitzWalter were camped at the river crossing and surprised by the Lancastarians under Lord Clifford. It seems they were caught while asleep. FitzWalter rushed out of his tent without donning his armour and was killed. So, in the timescale of the skirmish, 10 minutes would make a difference (I presume that in camp, the armour was sorted and prepared, so could be put on quickly).

Yeah, a very famous prelude to the Battle of Towton and one that i would love to see gamed...... hint..... hint! 

I guess I will give the men-at-arms a dice roll as soon as the alarm is raised - the may try at the end of each turn and if they roll 5+ they may join the fray armoured…

Sounds reasonable to me. Keep it simple and you can't go wrong.

Darrell.

[Cherno]

I just found this YT film and I wanted to add it here since it fits the topic, also by the Metropolitan Museum of Art



"How to Mount a Horse in Armor and Other Chivalric Problems"

Dirk H. Breiding, Assitant Curator, Department of Arms and Armor, The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Museum curators and conservators explore a fascinating topic—Misconceptions. Talks highlight the permanent collection and address misunderstandings commonly held by the public and, occasionally, even by specialists in the field.

[Atheling]

I just found this YT film and I wanted to add it here since it fits the topic, also by the Metropolitan Museum of Art



"How to Mount a Horse in Armor and Other Chivalric Problems"

Dirk H. Breiding, Assitant Curator, Department of Arms and Armor, The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Museum curators and conservators explore a fascinating topic—Misconceptions. Talks highlight the permanent collection and address misunderstandings commonly held by the public and, occasionally, even by specialists in the field.

It's too early to watch the video as I may wake up the girlfriend that that really would be like Ferrybridge all over again! 

Coming from a slightly different angle but still relevant, here's a video of Mike Loads (Taken from his Weapons that Made Britain series) demonstrating just how manoeuvrable one can be in a full suit of harness:



Once it's donned, you're ready to fight!

Darrell.

[shandy]

Darrell, I'm certainly going to put an AAR on my blog & announce it all over the place 
Mike Loads is fun to watch, I first saw him on Time Commanders when I spent some time in Britain years ago… Can you imagine my surprise about a wargaming show on TV?
Thanks for the links, looking forward to the Metropolitan Museum of Art video!
Cheers,
Shandy

[Atheling]

Darrell, I'm certainly going to put an AAR on my blog & announce it all over the place 
Mike Loads is fun to watch, I first saw him on Time Commanders when I spent some time in Britain years ago… Can you imagine my surprise about a wargaming show on TV?

He's got such a passion for what he does it is difficult to fault the man