HAVOC - New Player

[crab27]

I have recently picked up the PDF for HAVOC and have yet to actually get a game in, but I have a few questions from my first read through.

Are the bonus dice gained from poor/good form intended to be 1-use only, or do your retain them for the remainder of the game?

Troop type:  Melee/Skirmisher - Is this supposed to be 2 entries?  Can you field figures with 1 weapon (and no shield) just dropping the Skirmisher rule?  Should there be a points difference?

I had noticed an entry for a Roman Legionaire with Pila (hvy javelin), are there any rules for [regular] javelin, sling or other short to medium ranged weapons?

Another apparent gap, there are rules for a knight atop a flying mount, but no rules for individual flyers?  Would this be an upgrade?

Is morale supposed to be strictly at the discretion of the controlling player?

[VoodooInk]

I have recently picked up the PDF for HAVOC and have yet to actually get a game in, but I have a few questions from my first read through.

Welcome!

Are the bonus dice gained from poor/good form intended to be 1-use only, or do your retain them for the remainder of the game?

They are 'one-shots' and expended after use. I think you'll find that a single die on Momentum rolls can make a significant difference!

Troop type:  Melee/Skirmisher - Is this supposed to be 2 entries? 

No, it's one entry.

Can you field figures with 1 weapon (and no shield) just dropping the Skirmisher rule?  Should there be a points difference?

If you want to, then you definitely can. I could see you doing this if you wanted to run a game with a smaller number of figures while being able to enjoy the activation mechanic to its fullest. In that case, I would keep the pricing the same.

If you want to do this in a larger game for some reason [like most of your figures having just 1 weapon or to single out a specific group of troops thematically], then I would discount the price to 19 points.

are there any rules for [regular] javelin, sling or other short to medium ranged weapons?

There was a lot of testing with different ranged weapon profiles both before and after release. What we found was that making a weapon just slightly different to fill out a laundry list seem a little contrived and really wasn't the goal of the design.

If you attempting to represent a particular weapon that is common to a force in a fantasy game [like a lizardman skink's blow gun], then I would use and 're-skin' one of the existing profiles [crossbows=blowguns].

If you want to represent something more historic and feel you need some more diverse profiles, then shoot me a pm with what you're looking for.

there are rules for a knight atop a flying mount, but no rules for individual flyers?  Would this be an upgrade?

I think you'll find that the actual flying abilities are pretty powerful and hence restricted to named heroes. For other flyers that would normally be classified as infantry or beasts, i would just use the standard profiles without the flying rules. That said, feel free to experiment with using the flying rules on any of the profiles!

Is morale supposed to be strictly at the discretion of the controlling player?

That's a tricky question to answer because it's a bit complex how it all comes together in play, and there are multiple elements that model both morale and leadership. I'll answer the surface level question that I think you are asking first with a few examples.

A group of heavy cavalry can impact your unit of skirmishers if you don't choose to flee on your activation. Can you stand your ground and almost certainly get wiped out? Absolutely. A heavy cavalry unit is engaged by multiple spearmen but has the option to leave the combat during the swing and possibly steal Momentum? Can you stay to tie-up the spearmen an almost certainly get wiped out in melee? Yes. In both of these examples, the choice is at the player's discretion. Your troops will do exactly what you want. If you have a good tactical reason to sacrifice some pawns, then a morale stat is not going to get in your way. It's not that kind of game.

On the other hand, when discretion is the better part of valor, it's up to you to make the right moves at the right time.

Leadership, command, and morale are more directly modeled when an opposing player breaks up you formations and forces you to activate in an inefficient manner. This usually happens as either a product of you making a mistake, OR your opponent outplaying you. No leadership stats or rolls are requires, but it'll feel like your trying to control some troops that are starting to become disordered in the face of hard opposition.

Hope that helps! I'm around if you have any other questions.

[crab27]

Thank you for the quick reply, your answers were most helpful.

For a first game containing only neophites would you recommend using the Historical HAVOC variant to simplify the game?

I really like the poor form/good show rules for in game mistakes, but granting what you described as a significant advantage for a painted force?  Was that included assuming that with similar figures color would be necessary for differentiation (i.e. the swordsman with the red helm is the Named character)?  I can understand enjoying a painted force, but is it not imbalancing to give an in-game bonus for external factors? 

[VoodooInk]

For a first game containing only neophites would you recommend using the Historical HAVOC variant to simplify the game?

You'll be fine either way. The Historical HAVOC variant is really about delivering a more serious and measured approach while eliminating the cinematic and momentum changing elements in the game. It won't be too different from a complexity point of view. It's more of a style difference. My advice would be to try the one that sounds most appealing to you as a gamer- everything else will fall into place.

I really like the poor form/good show rules for in game mistakes, but granting what you described as a significant advantage for a painted force?

I simply meant that the die gained from the poor form/good show rules do can be used to good effect as one-shots. If they stuck around for the full game, then that would be unbalancing. As it stands, these points are nice little extras that you will constantly debate over. 'Should I use it now?'

Was that included assuming that with similar figures color would be necessary for differentiation (i.e. the swordsman with the red helm is the Named character)?  I can understand enjoying a painted force, but is it not imbalancing to give an in-game bonus for external factors? 

The Rules of Form are just about the philosophy of HAVOC and the hobby. It says that there is a value in miniatures just beyond the stats and that you get a small reward for bringing a fully painted force to the table. I think painted armies increase the enjoyment for both players. Not only that, but players that don't like giving an advantage to their opponent are much more motivated to get their minis painted!

[crab27]

The Rules of Form are just about the philosophy of HAVOC and the hobby. It says that there is a value in miniatures just beyond the stats and that you get a small reward for bringing a fully painted force to the table. I think painted armies increase the enjoyment for both players. Not only that, but players that don't like giving an advantage to their opponent are much more motivated to get their minis painted!

On that I am a hopeless case, I have been gaming for 23+ years and still show zero interest in painting, I even avoid assembly as much as possible.  3D minis are nice, and occasionally required by the rules depending on the LoS rules, but to me they are just tokens repesenting rules values.  I have, at times, paid friends/other LGS regulars to do some painting for me, but that has been the exception to the rule.  Years ago I purchased an entire paint set, thinking it would inspire me to try my had at it -- instead I threw them all out when they dryed out, unused.

Things I'd like to see rewarded, on the other hand:  Supplying pizza to the players, "Paying the Rent" (aka, buying something on game day to support the LGS you are gaming in), organizing the game, bringing in a new player, supplying loaner figures/force, having a loaner force available to entice drop-ins, etc...   

[VoodooInk]

On that I am a hopeless case, I have been gaming for 23+ years and still show zero interest in painting, I even avoid assembly as much as possible.  3D minis are nice, and occasionally required by the rules depending on the LoS rules, but to me they are just tokens repesenting rules values.  I have, at times, paid friends/other LGS regulars to do some painting for me, but that has been the exception to the rule.  Years ago I purchased an entire paint set, thinking it would inspire me to try my had at it -- instead I threw them all out when they dryed out, unused.

:)As always, you and your group can feel free to ignore that particular Rule of Form. If you are using tokens or paper miniatures, then it's probably not much of a concern anyway.

Things I'd like to see rewarded, on the other hand:  Supplying pizza to the players, "Paying the Rent" (aka, buying something on game day to support the LGS you are gaming in), organizing the game, bringing in a new player, supplying loaner figures/force, having a loaner force available to entice drop-ins, etc...   

These all fall under rule 3 of the Well played! and Good Show! section of the rules. 

[Fates Fickle Finger]

Havoc has fast become my favorite system, everyone that has played at my local club has been instantly hooked! that has never happened before! Spread the word.

FFF

[crab27]

Working on getting HAVOC introduced.  My local LGS is Games Workshop and Privateer Press only at the moment.

[Fates Fickle Finger]

Well I am several games in now and have lots of club members playing! I have had several questions about "the named" points cost. Is the points cost for a "named" the troop type and then the cost for "the named" or is the total points cost just the cost  listed under the different types of "named"?

Also any advice on a good campaign system for Havoc? Taking territories, advancing troops, recruiting fresh troops that sort of thing?
Thanks in advance
FFF

[VoodooInk]

Is the points cost for a "named" the troop type and then the cost for "the named" or is the total points cost just the cost  listed under the different types of "named"?

The point cost for being elevated to named status is above and beyond the base cost for the unit type [it's an upgrade]. So, if your model Conan is equipped with a great weapon, then you could upgrade him to 'the Destroyer' for 72 points. 

Also any advice on a good campaign system for Havoc? Taking territories, advancing troops, recruiting fresh troops that sort of thing?

Yes! You have all you need to run a small campaign here. It allows you to play and create a bit of a story, challenges players in and out of the game, and offers multiple 'win' conditions. There is a campaign guide/system that is being built for my games, but I can't reveal more than that at this time.

I do recommend finishing a campaign with a massive battle using this multiplayer mode. It's an epic finish!