Old West only?

[Digits]

Holywood Western timing!

[Conquistador]

I'm not sure that there is, though I think the common assumption seems to be post US Civil War and pre 20th Century.

I think Wikipedia has it closer with it being from the 1830s through the 1920s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_American_Old_West

The 1910s/1920s may be "too late" in many ways but I think it starts much earlier than the 1860s.

I play most 1680 - 1820 and it feels "western" to me but YMMV.

Gracias,

Glenn

[warlord frod]

If you look at all the key players we consider the outlaws and lawmen of fame they were in their prime between 1870 and 1890. We have made the period seem like it went on for years and years but in reality it was only 15 to 20 years. One might argue that we include the period of the western Indian wars (1866-1890) but that still only makes the period cover roughly 24 years. No period in history dominates our imaginations as powerfully as this. The next closest is the Gangster era another that lasted about 15 to 20 years but seems so much bigger in our collective psyche.

[Conquistador]

Sorry but my Cherokee father (and my Hispanic Mother) would argue the Indian Wars were much longer    and even the first half of Robert Utley's two volume set Frontiersmen in Blue: The United States Army and the Indian, 1848-1865 certainly covers the continuing warfare between White (Dutch, Spanish, French, English, American,) cultures and assorted nations, especially "west" of the Mississippi River.  

Even if you don't go back to the extremes of The History of the Indian Wars in New England from the First Settlement to the Termination of the War with King Philip, in 1677, which I don't, I do think it is there beyond  any question that it was  "Wild West" earlier.  Jay Freeman is quoted as saying, "In the first half of the nineteenth century, the Comanches, often referred to as “lords of the Plains,” were the single most powerful military force in the region, to the frustration of both the Mexican and U.S. governments."  The first half...  It took us Spanish a series of ongoing, long, hard, sometimes, (okay, almost always,) merciless and hard fought campaigns to keep from being stymied or even rolled back by Indian revolts in northern New Spain during the years 1680-1786.  Even after that it wasn't exactly pleasant some years.  

If you limit yourself to Whites preying effectively on Whites,   plus the odd off and on attempts at genocide during the post ACW then I would agree completely with your time line.  I realize that is probbly skirting politics so I will not go any farther along that line.  That is the classical period "Hollywood" has burned into many minds.

Fun discussion but it only matters what the gamers play out on the table to most of us.  I consider my games "western" more than early colonial, especially here on LAF where colonial seems trapped in the 19th Century.  

Gracias,

Glenn

[Elbows]

Eh, just depends on what time frames you enjoy.  Personally I couldn't care less about Spanish conquests in Central America or even the early West (Texas, Mexico etc.) thus I don't game them.  The "Wild West" is decidedly post-ACW American expansion (maybe as early as the late 40's "gold rush" etc.).  That's what I predominantly game. 

[Conquistador]

Eh, just depends on what time frames you enjoy.  Personally I couldn't care less about Spanish conquests in Central America or even the early West (Texas, Mexico etc.) thus I don't game them.  The "Wild West" is decidedly post-ACW American expansion (maybe as early as the late 40's "gold rush" etc.).  That's what I predominantly game. 

Nothing wrong with that, horse for courses...

Gracias,

Glenn

[Digits]

This topic made me go look at the chronology of the Wild West.....courtesy of wiki, and I'm glad I did......I've dispelled so many things I thought happened and the order of them....go look....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_American_Old_West

[Elbows]

I'll have to look through that sometime.  The one thing that I'm not familiar with are the specific dates when territories etc. became states. Heck I was born in Idaho - a state which was not a state during the ACW.   

What's weird to me is that some Old West stuff was still going on during the early days of the Mobsters/Gangsters back East.  A lot of places were very slow to adapt to that fancy "new fangled" technology. 

[NickNascati]

Given that the "Wild Bunch" had its heyday in the 1890s, and Butch and Sundance were alive until 1908, I'd say a reasonable beginning and end date for the classic Wild West would be 1866 - 1900.

[warlord frod]

Sorry but my Cherokee father (and my Hispanic Mother) would argue the Indian Wars were much longer    and even the first half of Robert Utley's two volume set Frontiersmen in Blue: The United States Army and the Indian, 1848-1865 certainly covers the continuing warfare between White (Dutch, Spanish, French, English, American,) cultures and assorted nations, especially "west" of the Mississippi River.  

Yes you are correct if we are talking about all the indian wars but I was focusing on the period in question ie the "wild west" period we are gaming. So I am referring to the Indians fought predominately during that period (Apache, Lakota and Comanche) at least those are the ones that crop up in the heyday of outlaws and lawmen.  Just take a look at the timing of two of the most notable shootouts - Wild Bill Hickok-Davis Tutt shootout, July 21, 1865,(The First public 1 on 1 fast draw shoot out that was reported in the papers) Gunfight at the O.K. Corral, October 26, 1881, (who does not know this one) These alone define the period we game. Then consider this   Pearl Hart and Joe Boot, her accomplice, robbed the Globe, Ariz., stage in 1898. This is considered the last Wild West Stagecoach Robbery. All the "Wild Bunch's) bank and train robberies took place between 1892-1895.

If we want to expand our thinking to cover western frontier days yes the the time period will be much longer and cover more territory. But I believe most of us game this briefer period.  

[Elbows]

Christopher Columbus with a sixgun!? 

[Digits]

I kind of always associate Wild West with being everything following the civil war...so 1865 to the end of the century.   However......I love spaghetti westerns...favourite being Good, the Bad and the Ugly....clearly set during the war......and probably unrealistic.   Outlaw Josey Whales...set at the end of the war has clint dressed in older period clothing and sporting a clearly older weapon....so all mixed up.    I wasn't aware before of the apache v Union and apache v confederacy........so....I will revise my thinking to incorporate about 1850 to the end if the century...rambling....

[Cory]

Given that the "Wild Bunch" had its heyday in the 1890s, and Butch and Sundance were alive until 1908, I'd say a reasonable beginning and end date for the classic Wild West would be 1866 - 1900.

I grew up around several old timers who had been peripherally involved in the hunt for Butch Cassidy. One had even, at the age of fifteen, been the driver of a Sears motorized carriage for the Pinkertons in Montana and Wyoming during the pursuit.

In fact for per capita old west violence the worst city of the old west was the year and a half long rail town of Tunnel that accompanied the Milwaukee Railroad's construction of a mile and a half long tunnel in 1906-07.

[Conquistador]

This topic made me go look at the chronology of the Wild West.....courtesy of wiki, and I'm glad I did......I've dispelled so many things I thought happened and the order of them....go look....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_American_Old_West

Even with all the standard academic "warnings" about Wikipedia it can be very useful if you approach it with some caution and verify everything with recognized sources (often found in the Wikipedia footnotes.) 

I understand the "short-term" time frame view but growing up in the "West" I find it odd how we ignore those events that don't fit our preconceptions, not just on this subject.  But I digress...  Very interesting site.  Thanks!

Gracias,

Glenn

[FifteensAway]

I agree to a degree with Glenn's focus on pulling the period earlier but I wonder a bit at quite as far back as he goes.

I'd give two alternatives for the Old West period, and maybe both combined.  Colt's development of the revolver pistol - earlier than the ACW if memory serves, though perfected afterwards - and the California Gold rush.  I really think you need both.  And we must remember that California was what pulled most people west in the first place, just a lot of them didn't make it all the way.  And you Texans who think otherwise should move to Tierra Tel Fuego! 

But seriously, folks, if you study the Gold Rush I think you'll find the prototype for most of the Old West - except maybe the range wars.  What about the cattle drives, you say?  Well, okay, not cattle but in the 1840s there were herds of 100,000+ horses running wild in the central valley of California and Americans entered the Mexican territory (which it was at the time) and stole them in herds of thousands to take east across the deserts.  Why, I think some of those horse thieves were even Texans!