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Author Topic: Ainsty Steamer(Update 7/9)  (Read 9512 times)

Offline FramFramson

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #15 on: 14 July 2014, 10:14:03 PM »
Precisely, Fram.  IMHO.
I think Andy is reading the lines of the hulls correctly, it's just that the transition he's sculpting takes place over a wider area on the real ships, further back and also well below the waterline.

If you look right at the waterline on the photos Andy posted, you can see it.

This shot is the clearest of what I mean:



But this photo is good too, if you look right along the line between the black and the brown (which I believe corresponds to the waterline):



The curves are graceful and barely there at all. In fact they'd be easy to mistake for a straight line.


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Offline Andym

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #16 on: 15 July 2014, 08:06:14 AM »
That's a great start Andy. Genuine miniature engineering. Wonderful.
I might have to buy one of these in due course. Been looking for a decent steamer for years.

Not sure I'd want the paddle wheels though... Do you intend the modularity will allow for non-paddle versions?



Yes,  that's one of the ideas. I'm thinking different cabin options,  funnels, cranes, and what-not! I don't know if it's worth making up some Nef parts too?

@Fram and Gary- Thanks for the constructive criticism. It always really helps me get things right!

I think you're both exactly correct! There's few problems I have though. The full hull can only be 18" long. If I make the transition any longer there won't be any room for paddle units either side. The other problem is all the plastic sheet is welded together with polystyrene cement. It's not just the bottom that needs changing, I would need to rip ALL the sides off to be able to get into the ribs and adapt them! I would need to start ALL over again!!! :'( :'( :'( And the last thing....I tried cutting the hull off and nearly slit my wrist with the fecking knife!! :o :o Do you both think I can get away with leaving it as is?

The more I look into ships it seems my hull maybe more battle ship then steamer. This is a couple of pics I found of the Bismarck

 





It looks like I might need to fix the port side. You were right Jim, a couple of the plates kinked....


Offline OSHIROmodels

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #17 on: 15 July 2014, 08:13:35 AM »
My guess would be that you've used too much solvent mate and as the fumes have no way out between the ribs they have attacked the styrene, hence the 'warping' you can see.

Unfortunately it will only get worse and the only suggestion is to start again.

Soul destroying I know but there's no other option  :(

You might be able to cut a couple of hull panels out and just do those but then again, it might be more trouble than it's worth.

cheers

James

Offline Andym

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #18 on: 15 July 2014, 10:23:01 AM »
I don't think I'll need to go that far James! If I can pull the top layer off I reckon I might be able to pack the underneath with thin GS and put a new plate back on top. It won't help for the overall shape but it should repair the panel mate!

Offline Mason

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #19 on: 15 July 2014, 11:39:05 AM »
How about sanding some blue foam to the right shape and placing it inside so it is bulking the panel back out?

It might be easier that way.... ???


Offline OSHIROmodels

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #20 on: 15 July 2014, 12:30:59 PM »
Blue foam and styrene glue (the solvent type) don't mix at all. You could coat the foam in pva or some such but it's a lot more work.

I hope the packing out works mate  :)

cheers

James

Offline Mr. Peabody

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #21 on: 15 July 2014, 02:36:13 PM »
It's a great looking hull, but the lines do suggest speed over cargo.

Still, the rule of cool will likely win out because it has great detail.

I think you're both exactly correct! There's few problems I have though. The full hull can only be 18" long. If I make the transition any longer there won't be any room for paddle units either side.

The more I look into ships it seems my hull maybe more battle ship then steamer.
If I were to buy a ship for gaming it would both have to look the part and fit on my table. So a caricature of a ship, with distortion and compression of lines, is in order. I think you are heading down the right path.

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #22 on: 15 July 2014, 03:09:02 PM »
May I suggest You leave the warped surface as it is in order to simulate battle damage? Give it a rough PJ to check how it looks. "used look" is priceless

Offline The Dozing Dragon

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #23 on: 15 July 2014, 03:41:19 PM »
Warped surface looks good to me.

Offline gary42

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #24 on: 15 July 2014, 03:49:22 PM »
Andy has never broken the Rule of Cool yet!
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Offline FramFramson

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #25 on: 15 July 2014, 06:12:46 PM »
Well, let’s look at a couple of things.

For the current problem with the kinks, maybe greensuff is the answer if you don't want to go for a full rebuild? You'll have a devil of a time getting it all smooth though, so I think the main question there is what will take longer: a full rebuild or a repair job. Something to consider is asking some model ship makers what they do.

If you decide it’s best to just rip the band-aid off and go with the full rebuild route, I don't think you have to go too far to get a reasonable result. But it may be worth asking yourself exactly what type of steamer you’re building.

Is this an interwar ship? Pre-world-wars? Trying to be as universal as possible will be a bit tough as there are some important design changes over time (raked bows, hull tapering, etc.). A hybrid between many forms may work, but you’ll definitely have to abandon those strong concave waterline cuts at the bow and opt for something smoother.

If this is primarily a commercial merchantman, this may be quite a bit easier as there’s less variation. Let’s look at some actual freighters.

First, here’s the #1 candidate for a tramp steamer: The Standard Built merchant ship.

In WWI, there was an admiralty push towards several common designs. They had more variations than the later WWII shipbuilding programmes, but were still far more standardized than pre-war ships.









Additionally, the Americans added to this with their “Hog Island” ship designs (another mass-production shipping programme), which were very similar.

(this first one is a troopship/hospital ship variant)







Note that both ship types feature a confusing silhouette that makes distinguishing the bow from the stern tough (not something I am suggesting you duplicate, since that will increase the size of the model for little benefit).

Many of these freighters were sold around the world and wound up in service in all sorts of countries, in tramp service, etc. and were enormously common during the interwar period as well as during WWII.

Second, during WWII proper, there came the Victory Ship and Liberty Ship designs. These were mass-produced by the allies in WWII to offset convoy losses and rapidly increase tonnage across the Atlantic and formed probably the largest shipbuilding programmes in history.

Victory Ships:







Liberty Ships:





In terms of size, tramps tended to be closer to Standard Built ships than Victory or Liberty ships, but were still well within the normal size range.

Quote
The size of tramp ships remained relatively constant from 1900 to 1940, at about 7,000 to 10,000 deadweight tons (dwt.). During World War II, the United States created the Liberty Ship; a single design that could be used to carry just about anything, which weighed in at 10,500 dwt

Many of those ships have almost no concave shapes in their bow taper, and older models are even straight-up convex. Alternately, if you’re building a ship that covers a larger span of time or other purposes, you may keep a more tapered bow (passenger ships, like warships, would be built more for speed and require a longer, more tapered bow, though either way, I would still suggest a smoother transition (my red line example).

One thing to note: If you look at the Bismarck and other large warships, you'll see they have almost an oval shape all 'round rather than the parallel  or nearly parallel sides a freighter has (for sidling up to the dock to off load cargo and also to make them cheaper to build).

What are you planning in terms of modules? When I saw your first shape, I thought you could taper the whole front section's waterline, only just coming to a parallel at the end of the section. You really wouldn't lose any playing area, but lines would look much more graceful, even on a short ship. Part of the reason I ask is that you say you need to have a ship that's no more than 18" long, but with a modular ship design, why worry about a fixed length? Or maybe that's the minimum length? I.E. If you use the bow module, stern module and only one middle module, your ship should not exceed 18"? But if you want to use extra middle modules, you can? One thing about the freighters above is that they lend themselves to modular designs: “command” section with superstructure “cargo” section, with cargo hatches and cuts in the rail, etc.

How long is that bow section? I imagine it's going to be the biggest module - the stern can be a simple hemi-circle (or an overhanging stern as shown in the liberty ship image above if you want to be really ambitious, but that's a complex shape and lots of freighters didn't bother with anything so noticeable). If building larger ships is possible, then I think you can afford to have a little more taper to your bow. My guess is an 8" bow with other sections being 5"? Or a 9" bow, 4" stern, and 5" midsections? Or...?

I still think the project is a great idea and that a few kinks along the way are things that can be overcome. Hopefully some of this info comes in handy!

Offline FramFramson

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #26 on: 15 July 2014, 06:34:40 PM »
I was looking again at the image you uploaded today. I realized a fix for the shape might not be as difficult as imagined.





The blue circled part is perfectly fine - no need for a change. The red circled part is where you have trouble - compare the Bismarck picture where the same area is circled, even with the battleship's speedier build, the curve is much more streamlined.

BUT this might be okay! Cutting away the yellow-circled area will let you fix the shape, and on the oppopsite side you can also cut away the worst kinked areas. Then, you can fix up just those area with some replacement styrene bridged with greenstuff as a gap filler/smoother.

The main difficulty is the cutting - you mentioned you couldn't cut it by hand. What about mechanical cutting? Do you have a dremel or other small cutter?  

Then again, I think the real issue is that the the concave curve flares outward much sooner on the battleship. This might be true for merchant ships too, so the only fix there is a total rebuild :'(

Here's what I think it might look like with lines closer to the merchant ships from my post above:



I wonder if you can get a template from a model shipbuilder site, perhaps?
« Last Edit: 15 July 2014, 09:12:44 PM by FramFramson »

Offline Andym

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Re: Ainsty Steamer
« Reply #27 on: 17 July 2014, 10:15:18 PM »
So I've put together this. It's not got the multiple layers on it yet but at least it gives a general idea of shape!  I think this is pretty close to Frams cargo ship pics.

 

What do we think? Any better?

My next problem will be the back! Anybody any idea how I shape a round-ish are end AND manage to put on a top layer of plate detail? o_o o_o

Offline OSHIROmodels

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Re: Ainsty Steamer(Better Hull Design? 17/7)
« Reply #28 on: 17 July 2014, 10:25:26 PM »
Better shape for a cargo ship, yes  :)

Have you got any vent holes for the solvent fumes?

You could get the back vac-formed and then use the pen for the rivets but it would need a solid former of the shape.

The other option would be to keep the angle of the hull the same as it goes down the straight side and wraps round the back, that way you only have one curve to worry about and not a compound curve that would make shaping it difficult.

cheers

James

Offline Amalric

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Re: Ainsty Steamer(Better Hull Design? 17/7)
« Reply #29 on: 17 July 2014, 10:33:53 PM »
That looks better.
I look forward to watching your progress.


If you haven't seen this related topic, you may want to take a look;
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=68567.0

 

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